Transition off treats-how long? - Poodle Forum - Standard Poodle, Toy Poodle, Miniature Poodle Forum ALL Poodle owners too!
   

Go Back   Poodle Forum - Standard Poodle, Toy Poodle, Miniature Poodle Forum ALL Poodle owners too! > Poodle Training and Obedience > General Training and Obedience

General Training and Obedience All training and obedience questions, tips, articles go here

PoodleForum.com is the premier Poodle Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-17-2012, 07:44 PM   #1 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 2,073, Level: 28 Points: 2,073, Level: 28 Points: 2,073, Level: 28
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
flyingpoodle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Names of dogs: Pearl-born June 2012
Poodle Type: Standard
Location: Oregon
Posts: 115
Thanks: 160
Thanked 126 Times in 54 Posts
Default Transition off treats-how long?

I am mostly looking for reassurance that I don't need to worry about transitioning my 4 1/2 month old spoo off treats with clicker training yet. We are working on using a verbal or other mouth sound marker in addition to a mechanical clicker but are not consistent with any of them yet. It is just so darn easy to slip and misuse a mouth sound, but so much harder for me to inappropriately click.

I just keep reading about transitioning away from food treats, and worry since they are such a huge part of my training arsenal right now.

And yes, I understand always treat after you click.

I am working on going longer in between reinforcing/rewarding on structured walks, and using sniffing around as a reward without a click after an offered sit.

How long did the mysterious transition take some of you?
flyingpoodle is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to flyingpoodle For This Useful Post:
Arcticfox (10-22-2012)
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 10-22-2012, 03:03 PM   #2 (permalink)
Junior Member
Points: 618, Level: 12 Points: 618, Level: 12 Points: 618, Level: 12
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Names of dogs: Finn, Sunny, Annie, Nibbles
Location: Vermont
Posts: 7
Thanks: 0
Thanked 23 Times in 4 Posts
Default Fading treats

I will share a standard trainer reply: It depends.

The more continuously a treat is given for performing a behavior the stronger that behavior will be. We can switch to a variable reward schedule, only treating sometimes, and build a behavior that is less likely to go way.

There are going to be stages of development which are going to affect a pup's motivation and being prepared to highly reinforce a desired behavior is helpful.

Some behaviors I will always reward either with a conditioned or primary reinforcer, a recall for example ALWAYS is rewarded. I build a varied repertoire of conditioned reinforcers so that I don't need to have treats to reinforce a behavior, keeping in mind that behaviors can fade if they are not reinforced frequently enough.

If I'm not getting a cued behavior regularly it may be an indication that the behavior was not adequately reinforced.

More of a concern to me is that a treat is being used as bribe, instead of as a reinforcer. If it's being used as a reinforcer, too many is rarely a problem.
fearfuldogs is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 11 Users Say Thank You to fearfuldogs For This Useful Post:
Arcticfox (10-22-2012), cavon (10-22-2012), Chagall's mom (10-22-2012), CT Girl (11-28-2012), flyingpoodle (10-22-2012), liljaker (10-24-2012), lily cd re (11-27-2012), Lou (10-29-2012), MaryLynn (11-28-2012), MollyMuiMa (10-22-2012), Specman (11-28-2012)
Old 10-22-2012, 03:19 PM   #3 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 3,657, Level: 40 Points: 3,657, Level: 40 Points: 3,657, Level: 40
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Arcticfox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Names of dogs: Tesla
Poodle Type: Standard
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 323
Thanks: 366
Thanked 234 Times in 136 Posts
Default

Tesla's 13 months old now and I still have treats stashed all around the apartment, and frequently in my pockets or treat pouch. Her sits and downs and very very basic stuff have been moved to a variable schedule long ago. I still treat her for it occasionally but it's mostly secondary reinforcers now like getting to go through a door if she sits first, or being invited up onto my lap when she sits and gives paw. For everything else, we differentially reinforce the best half - so the fastest or prettiest or most accurate etc, if she's responding reliably to the cue. If the cue isn't reliable yet, then it's 100% reinforcement rate.
__________________
Arcticfox is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Arcticfox For This Useful Post:
flyingpoodle (10-22-2012)
Old 10-22-2012, 04:31 PM   #4 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 54,639, Level: 100 Points: 54,639, Level: 100 Points: 54,639, Level: 100
Activity: 82.7% Activity: 82.7% Activity: 82.7%
Last Achievements
 
Chagall's mom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Names of dogs: Chagall
Poodle Type: Silver male miniature poodle
Posts: 6,539
Thanks: 10,224
Thanked 9,703 Times in 3,945 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fearfuldogs View Post
I will share a standard trainer reply: It depends....

The more continuously a treat is given for performing a behavior the stronger that behavior will be.... We can switch to a variable reward schedule....
More of a concern to me is that a treat is being used as bribe, instead of as a reinforcer. If it's being used as a reinforcer, too many is rarely a problem.
If the wisdom you so succintly shared fit on a bumpersticker, I'd stick it my car for the world to see. Thanks!
__________________

Just be nice.
Cabryn Chagall, CGC
Chagall's mom is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Chagall's mom For This Useful Post:
Lou (10-29-2012)
Old 10-27-2012, 12:30 PM   #5 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 2,073, Level: 28 Points: 2,073, Level: 28 Points: 2,073, Level: 28
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
flyingpoodle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Names of dogs: Pearl-born June 2012
Poodle Type: Standard
Location: Oregon
Posts: 115
Thanks: 160
Thanked 126 Times in 54 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcticfox View Post
Tesla's 13 months old now and I still have treats stashed all around the apartment, and frequently in my pockets or treat pouch. Her sits and downs and very very basic stuff have been moved to a variable schedule long ago. I still treat her for it occasionally but it's mostly secondary reinforcers now like getting to go through a door if she sits first, or being invited up onto my lap when she sits and gives paw. For everything else, we differentially reinforce the best half - so the fastest or prettiest or most accurate etc, if she's responding reliably to the cue. If the cue isn't reliable yet, then it's 100% reinforcement rate.
This was a very useful description of where you and your dog are at, thanks! So maybe I get points for using some secondary reinforcers! I may be more advanced than I gave myself credit for!
flyingpoodle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2012, 02:45 AM   #6 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 6,755, Level: 57 Points: 6,755, Level: 57 Points: 6,755, Level: 57
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
msminnamouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Names of dogs: Ginger (my service dog) and Angel
Poodle Type: Standard, Mini
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 568
Thanks: 230
Thanked 345 Times in 167 Posts
Default

Great advice by Fearfuldogs.

I stop giving a treat every time once the behavior is mastered because I know that the dog knows it. Then I start phasing it out to intermittent use to keep the dog playing the odds. BUT I ALWAYS reward a job well done in some way. It can be cheering for your dog if they like that, baby talk, a big and happy smile, ear scratch, whatever. What the dog is receptive to. These are secondary reinforcers. Ginger's main one is cheering and applause (she's an attention wh*re) and Angel's is a face rub. But switch it up and play with it so see how many different rewards you can develop and utilize. You're never be caught without a way to reward good behavior.

But when you raise the criteria (more distractions, longer periods of compliance, etc.), you always up the treat use until the behavior has been mastered with the new criteria as well.

Just how I do it. I definably don't bribe my dogs. They're happy to comply whether I have food in hand or not. Although, food makes them happiest.
__________________
msminnamouse is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to msminnamouse For This Useful Post:
lily cd re (11-27-2012), Specman (11-28-2012)
Old 11-27-2012, 05:25 PM   #7 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 25,081, Level: 100 Points: 25,081, Level: 100 Points: 25,081, Level: 100
Activity: 99.6% Activity: 99.6% Activity: 99.6%
Last Achievements
 
lily cd re's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Names of dogs: Lily and Peeves (GSD)
Poodle Type: standard
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 3,242
Thanks: 2,791
Thanked 3,991 Times in 2,041 Posts
Default

You will never get rid of food rewards entirely, but make sure as fearful dogs said to use them as a reinforcer not a bribe. A nice jackpot of food, ball play or a good belly rub for an especially good response throughout the life of the dog will keep the desired responses crisp and fast. I am sure you realize that your dog will have opportunities to learn new things with you throughout your life together. As the tasks become more complex going back to food rewards will always help the learning.
__________________


Catherine
Lily AKC: CGC CD HIT CDX RN RA RE RAE RAE2 RAE3 RAE4 NA NAJ; APDT: RL-1; CPE: CL1-R, CL1-H, CL1-F, CL1-S, CL1
Peeves AKC: CGC BN RN
lily cd re is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to lily cd re For This Useful Post:
Chagall's mom (11-27-2012)
Old 11-28-2012, 04:07 AM   #8 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 22,473, Level: 100 Points: 22,473, Level: 100 Points: 22,473, Level: 100
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Names of dogs: Swizzle Stick
Poodle Type: Silver Toy
Posts: 3,870
Thanks: 5,424
Thanked 3,039 Times in 2,005 Posts
Default

I think missminnamouse has a great point. Always reward a job well done even if it is just with a pleased look. I have seen people go from tons of treats to almost none in a short amount of time without subbing in a rub, a tug ect. And it is very demotivating for the dog. Fearful dogs as nailed it. As long as it is reinforcement and not a bribe it is not a problem.
CT Girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2012, 11:58 AM   #9 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 3,874, Level: 41 Points: 3,874, Level: 41 Points: 3,874, Level: 41
Activity: 7.5% Activity: 7.5% Activity: 7.5%
Last Achievements
 
Specman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Names of dogs: Max, Gigi
Poodle Type: Miniature, Mixed Breed
Location: Orland Park, Illinois
Posts: 352
Thanks: 150
Thanked 299 Times in 157 Posts
Default

I had a trainer tell me once "You get paid for your work, why shouldn't your dog?" There should always be a reward of some sort for your dog especially for re3call.
Specman is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Specman For This Useful Post:
Chagall's mom (11-28-2012)
Old 11-28-2012, 02:07 PM   #10 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 4,505, Level: 45 Points: 4,505, Level: 45 Points: 4,505, Level: 45
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
MaryLynn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Names of dogs: Gryphon and Bruce
Poodle Type: Standard
Location: Ontario
Posts: 628
Thanks: 471
Thanked 803 Times in 380 Posts
Default

You've been given really great advice above!

At your puppies age I wouldn't be taking away the food rewards just yet especially with adolescence coming up. That doesn't mean you have to treat every known behavior, but the more rewarding for positive behavior the better the behavior is going to stick!
MaryLynn is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
New young adult spoo, need advice on transition lwm1984 Poodle Talk 13 05-15-2012 04:50 AM
Help me transition to a TWO SPOO home TTUSpoo Poodle Talk 26 12-01-2011 07:25 PM
Loose Treats vs. Packaged Treats CharlieMyPoodle Poodle Food 5 06-23-2011 12:37 AM
Transition from crate to dog bed at night TZel General Training and Obedience 10 05-20-2010 06:48 AM
Silvers...transition from dark babies to platinum adults ArreauStandardPoodle Poodle Pictures 28 04-04-2010 05:01 AM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 05:46 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2
All (C) PoodleForum.com
PetGuide.com
Basset.net DobermanTalk.com GoldenRetrieverForum.com OurBeagleWorld.com
BoxerForums.com DogForums.com GoPitbull.com PoodleForum.com
BulldogBreeds.com FishForums.com HavaneseForum.com SpoiledMaltese.com
CatForum.com GermanShepherds.com Labradoodle-dogs.net YorkieForum.com
Chihuahua-People.com RetrieverBreeds.com