Ground Sniffing and Ways to Stop It - Poodle Forum - Standard Poodle, Toy Poodle, Miniature Poodle Forum ALL Poodle owners too!

sarpoodle · 01-26-2012, 08:23 PM

I'd like to throw this out there to others who may have dealt with this issue, regardless of the context.

Saydee is 7 months old and is currently being trained for wilderness search and rescue. Part of her training right now revolves around play and drive building. Over the past few months, she has started to show an ever increasing interest in sniffing the ground especially in new environments. This is proving to be a big distraction that has interfered with her training. Our team trains in a lot of different locations specifically to keep things fresh for the dogs so they aren't working the same area week after week. When Saydee is brought out to do a play session with one of the other handlers, this is where the ground scent distractions start to come into play.

Now, there are a few things revolving around her training that I've adjusted and they are helping to mitigate the problem. But you guys may have some thoughts that can be woven into my strategy.

I'm curious to hear if anybody else has found positive ways to keep their spoo less interested in the ground.

I don't know if this is a poodle thing, however, one of our other adult standards sort of does the same thing. He really, really likes to use his nose. In fact when he hits a scent that's of interest to him, he vacuums super loud. The dogs always hang around me whenever I'm in the kitchen fixing a meal (I'm sure nobody else has dogs that do that), and for some reason it always sounded like the compressor on our refrigerator was acting up (made a whop-whop-whop-whop noise). I finally realized it was Nash vacuuming under the edge of the counter trying to zero in on the food.

At any rate, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Greg

BorderKelpie · 01-26-2012, 08:32 PM

I'm having a similar problem with my toy poodle. I started FS tracking with her several months ago, now, everytime I take her anywhere, she's got her nose to the ground and tracking anything and everything.

Now, for everyday walks, I use a different collar set up and have high value rewards in my hand and a 'Heads up!' command. I try to encourage her to focus on me and not the ground. I'm just afraid I'll go too far, and she'll quit tracking.

See, it's our own fault. We taught them to use their noses, and now we want them to just flip the switch and stop. Somehow there's got to be a way to let them know when they can give it a rest already. I'm trying the collar/leash thing for regular outings and a harness for tracking only. But, even loose in the house, her nose is stuck to the ground. (I kept dragging her outside thinking she had to 'go.' lol)

I will be interested to see what others suggest.

Best wishes in your SAR career! (My daughter wants to do that after college ('m so proud of her)

sarpoodle · 01-26-2012, 09:05 PM

Hey BorderKelpie,

Thanks for your input and encouragement. I appreciate it.

In Saydee's case, she is currently being developed as an air-scenting dog. As such, she will be keeping her head up, unlike a tracking/trailing canine.

One aspect of my new strategy (suggested by an experienced handler who has used this) is to walk her in an unfamiliar area starting at 10 minutes. Give her a "leave it" when she starts to put her nose down on a spot. We'll do this a couple of times a week on the new location gradually building up to 30 minutes. As she becomes more familiar with the location, I'll try to use her toy to lore her away from the spot where she might want to sniff and then continue on the walk. Eventually, we'll build up further to where I have a helper go through our typical drive play session at this location. Then I'll repeat the process in a totally new spot.

This process will take time. In the meanwhile, I am looking for other ideas that won't conflict with this approach and help accelerate things if possible.

Greg

BorderKelpie · 01-26-2012, 09:25 PM

That makes sense. I wasn't considering the air-scenting issue. I have to try to avoid air-scenting.
Funny, we're taking two similar beings and teaching them two similar but different techniques of the same game.
I'm going to snoop around and see if I can come across anything interesting and worthwhile to share.

eta: I found some articles online that may or may not be useful. Just for grins and giggles I will post the link and then spend some time reading them. Who knows, maybe I'll learn something. lol
http://leerburg.com/articles.htm#police

fjm · 01-27-2012, 12:30 AM

I've never needed to stop my dogs sniffing, but perhaps putting it on cue - "Go sniff" - and having a "Heads up" cue that means you are about to play, might help? It is such an essential part of a dog's life that I assume you are not trying to eradicate it altogether - just when she is working? How do trainers of guide dogs for the blind do it?

Yaddaluvpoodles · 01-27-2012, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarpoodle

I'd like to throw this out there to others who may have dealt with this issue, regardless of the context.

Saydee is 7 months old and is currently being trained for wilderness search and rescue. Part of her training right now revolves around play and drive building. Over the past few months, she has started to show an ever increasing interest in sniffing the ground especially in new environments.
Why would you want to stop her from sniffing the ground? Should you even be considering stopping her from sniffing the ground?
Airscenters typically will have their heads up and moving, but remember that scent, skin rafts, etc, aren't always up in the air, air currents are like rivers and streams with eddys and currents and swirls. Sometimes scent will pool at ground level, in a foot print for example, even slight contours of the land, vegetation can alter the way the scent flows. Scent is everywhere for a dog. Young dogs need to learn to focus on the target scent and sort it out from the background scents. As we humans can't do that, it occasionally can throw a bit of a challenge into training. In redirecting Saydee are you confident that you aren't directing her away from the target scent is she possibly focusing on the smell crushed vegetation puts off? Having said that, is Saydee crittering? (looking for mice,grasshoppers, etc?) It may be important to teach her a command such as "get to work" (or whatever word or cue you choose to use), simply to refocus her on the job at hand. While she is training and getting her SAR skills learned well, the person she is finding needs to be the most interesting thing in the world to her.. kind of like providing a high level treat. Dogs always work for what is most rewarding.

Although airscenters typically carry their heads up, if you are training for SAR work, don't get too hung up on the "heads up" position.. the ultimate goal is to find the victim, and the head position doesn't matter as long as the dog is working the scent or finding the scent. Many times my dogs have put their noses to the ground in trying to locate scent pools.

Saydee is young.. although dogs have superb noses, some of scent work is experience and skill.

As far as the groundsniffing, where is your attention and what are you doing? Can Saydee be cueing off of you in any way? Sometimes a simple change in body posture, attentiveness, where the handler looks and does, can change what the dog does.

This is proving to be a big distraction that has interfered with her training. Our team trains in a lot of different locations specifically to keep things fresh for the dogs so they aren't working the same area week after week. When Saydee is brought out to do a play session with one of the other handlers, this is where the ground scent distractions start to come into play.

Does sound like she is distracted or possibly starting to critter. Back up a step on her training, do some runaways, some really short finds with super high value rewards. For whatever reason, finding the scent/looking for the victim doesn't sound like it's as rewarding as what she is getting in smelling the ground. I would back up one level, maybe more with her training.

When to you put her harness/vest or whatever she wears on? Make sure she never wears it for play, that she only wears it when she is working. I used to put Vic's vest on immediately before we "went to work". For me that phrase refers even to puppy SAR training.. and it implies a change of attitude. What we were doing could be fun and it could be playful... but it had to be focused. Putting Vic's vest on her helped to get that point across, it wasn't ball time, it wasn't frisbee time, it was working time. I would put the vest on and ask her "Do you want to be a working girl? Are you ready to be a working girl? Just the words "working girl", got her so super excited! She loved working! The one distraction that I never over came with her as far as SAR work was food. Worked great as a motivator for training.. but she was/is so food obsessive that it made certain types of SAR work.. pretty much impossible. As soon as we were done with "work", the vest came off. That means it's play time.. during play time all is fair, even crittering.

Now, there are a few things revolving around her training that I've adjusted and they are helping to mitigate the problem. But you guys may have some thoughts that can be woven into my strategy.

I'm curious to hear if anybody else has found positive ways to keep their spoo less interested in the ground.
I could care less if one of mine is interested in the ground.. as long as they are finding whatever it is they are supposed to find. Pay attention to Saydee's body language. With Vic and Gil, they both are very alert, lean forward ever so slightly, slightly increased muscle tone when they are working, if they are crittering or distracted, the muscle tone relaxes, their body language changes, at that point, I merely redirect with a simple "get to work" I don't give that command as a reprimand, but as a gentle prompt and it's all it takes to refocus attention.

I don't know if this is a poodle thing, however, one of our other adult standards sort of does the same thing. He really, really likes to use his nose. In fact when he hits a scent that's of interest to him, he vacuums super loud. The dogs always hang around me whenever I'm in the kitchen fixing a meal (I'm sure nobody else has dogs that do that), and for some reason it always sounded like the compressor on our refrigerator was acting up (made a whop-whop-whop-whop noise). I finally realized it was Nash vacuuming under the edge of the counter trying to zero in on the food.

At any rate, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
My biggest suggestion is to take her training back a couple of levels, she needs to be aware that this game is all about finding the victim, it needs to be interesting enough to keep her totally focused on it, progress at a rate she doesn't get bored keep the obstacles and challenges variable, but acheivable for her. With quick and easy finds as well as some she has to work a bit harder for. AND it needs to be the most rewarding thing in the world for her. As her enjoyment of the "game" develops and her passion for it increases, her drive will build naturally along with her passion for getting the job done. Are you able to recognize Saydee's body language when she hits scent?
Greg

......

Countryboy · 01-27-2012, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yaddaluvpoodles

When do you put her harness/vest or whatever she wears on? Make sure she never wears it for play, that she only wears it when she is working. I used to put Vic's vest on immediately before we "went to work". For me that phrase refers even to puppy SAR training.. and it implies a change of attitude. What we were doing could be fun and it could be playful... but it had to be focused. Putting Vic's vest on her helped to get that point across, it wasn't ball time, it wasn't frisbee time, it was working time. I would put the vest on and ask her "Do you want to be a working girl? Are you ready to be a working girl? Just the words "working girl", got her so super excited! She loved working!

When I was training Spud for Rally we had a slip leash that I never used for walks. It was for 'working' only. *I used a slip leash 'coz I didn't have to change out of his Martingale.* U'd be amazed at how quickly a Poodle picks up on the changeover.

On his regular walking leash he would sniff and wander. On the 'training leash' his attention became focused on me immediately. He knew!

sarpoodle · 01-27-2012, 08:01 AM

Okay, in retrospect, my original post was too broad. There are a lot of knowledgeable folks on here. I oversimplified my problem in an effort to reach a larger group of people. My apologies for not giving you all the credit you deserved.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fjm

I've never needed to stop my dogs sniffing, but perhaps putting it on cue - "Go sniff" - and having a "Heads up" cue that means you are about to play, might help? It is such an essential part of a dog's life that I assume you are not trying to eradicate it altogether - just when she is working? How do trainers of guide dogs for the blind do it?

Clever idea. Put a cue on the activity. I like that. Also, I can assure you that I am not looking to eradicate sniffing altogether. Again, my OP was too broad for the reason stated above. It was silly of me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yaddaluvpoodles

......

Wow, thanks for the amazing and detailed response. ALL of your points are extremely helpful, and spot on. Thanks.

First off, I'm a rookie SAR handler and I still don't know what I don't know. I made some critical mistakes along the way (primarily from a little lack of direction). First, Saydee probably wasn't spending enough time in the kennel. At one point, the amount of time in the kennel appeared to be a negative. Rather than moderate it just a bit, I went the complete opposite direction and really only put her up after a training session or when I couldn't watch her. Two, she is a prolific chewer. She can hardly sit idle without wanting to find something to chew on. I made the mistake of letting her chew on non-training toys (trying to keep the training toy special) to satisfy that because she was out of the kennel so much. Three, one very experienced handler concluded that she may have been receiving too much play from me during the week. With those things taken together, at training, the ground in a new area became too enticing. These 3 aspects have been corrected, and we're starting to see improvements. For now, she is spending more time in the kennel (I'm keeping a log of her disposition to see if the times need to be adjusted), and she can only chew on food-like toys, such as bullysticks, rawhides, a Kong with peanut butter, etc (of course, those are given in a reasonable amount).

When Saydee is a finished product, I agree with you. I could care less how she finds the victim. It can be air-scenting or ground-scenting, wherever those rafts happen to be. Shoot, she could text message the victim or write on their Facebook page if that gets her the find. The result is all I care about.

Saydee does have an interest in critters, although it's not acute, meaning she hasn't yet gone tearing after them. There have been a number of occasions, while on leash that she started pulling like a sled dog to run down a group of birds or geese.

To answer your question about Saydee possibly cuing off of me during the play and sniffing the ground, I guess it's possible, but not likely. The play is centered on tugging. When I play with her, she is confident, barring any distractions. I am still careful with my initial body position starting out. I don't front face her or lean over her; I come in lower and a bit sideways. When another handler is playing with her, I remain at a distance, and she could care less about me. A large number of our other handlers are more familiar with GSD's or very hard dogs. For somebody who hasn't played with Saydee before or frequently, I remind them to not overwhelm her starting out with body position, even if it means starting out on their knees to engage her. Once she is engaged with them fully, then it's game on. They can start to stand up, she'll growl, tug well, and likes to be flipped around. It's the starting out part where the distractions come into play. We are starting to work on her indication these past few weeks (after seeing some improvement in the play). Once she starts to play with another handler, then I move in a bit closer and behind her. When the toy is withheld, then she starts to bark, and once she looks at me or shoots me a glance, it gets marked by me (with a "good" if it's just a quick look, or a "show me" if she looks longer right at me; "show me" will be her refind command).

As to your point about the vest and getting her in a working mode ... well, duh! You're so right. To be honest, I felt a bit self-conscious about putting her in a SAR vest like the other handlers since she was so new. Right now, I have been using the same harness for training and everyday use. In retrospect, that was stupid of me. A new vest is in order so that she has that cue, and these activities have a definitive context.

Once again, thanks for everyone's input. I really appreciate it.

Greg

Yaddaluvpoodles · 01-27-2012, 10:46 PM

Ah crumb! Did a huge reply and lost it.

Airscenting SAR work requires a partnership that is super rewarding and most pet owners never reach and are never really able to comprehend. As your relationship with Saydee develops.. you'll love it!

Learn to trust Saydee. ALWAYS trust your dog.. but... you are the other half of that equation, in order to set Saydee up for success, learn as much as you can about scent theory, as well as all aspects of SAR work. I haven't been involved in SAR work for a number of years. There used to be terrific resources at the NASAR website as well as CARDA. There also used to be a number of yahoo groups for k9 handlers, some better, some worse than others.

Remember that you are working a poodle.. and not all dogs are created equal. I have found poodles to require a much softer touch, more positive rewards than some of the other working dog breeds. Just my opinion, but I believe they are more highly domesticated which leads to a higher aptitude for verbal recognition as well as human body language and expressions... which makes for a better partner!

Not all training works for all dogs, if you are uncomfortable with anything that anyone is doing with Saydee... you are her partner, you are responsible for her and her training experience.. stop them! That tidbit comes from some bad experiences I put Vic through at the hands of a very knowledgeable and experienced trainer, with many credentials to back him up. He was an excellent training, but his training methods not only didn't work for Vic.. it made for a very unhappy, unmotivated girl.. who wasn't having fun. No motivation, unhappy, miserable.. does not make for a good SAR dog!

re: Chewing... Saydee is just a puppy and should be about done growing teeth, losing teeth, regrowing teeth.. fingers crossed that her chewing will decrease to a normal adult level soon! Like the idea that you are now giving her specific items to chew. Take care though, there are lots of hazards with chew items.... (my dogs get carefully chosen, whole fresh bones.. which I'm sure makes a whole lot of people here shudder!)

re: Kenneling (crating??) I'm missing the point of the kenneling as it's being done now to control behavior. Many of the old timey trainers used to use dogs as tools. Get them out when they needed them, put them away when they are done. As I've never personally owned a GSD, malinois, rott.. etc.. well.. maybe that's the way things need to go for those breeds. But with a poodle, I want my poodle at my side regardless of what I'm doing. I expect them to be "on" when we work, relaxed when we're not. I do support and believe in crate training and for SAR dogs it's important for a number of reasons, BUT.. I also expect my dogs to spend as little of time as possible in crates. I believe that crating can contribute to joint issues (especially hip dysplasia) as well as poor muscle and joint development and general poor conditioning. I'd love to hear more about the crating and how it works for Saydee.

Hmmm... re the game with the toy... When doing SAR work, I want my dogs to find people, not toys. When I was out with my SAR group, the focus was on humans, not toys. Vic loves people and toys obsessively and is highly food motivated. What that meant for me is.. I was able to do some training with toys at home that I could transfer over to SAR work. Vic used to be a royal pain in the ass (yes, I dearly love her.. but it's the truth). As a puppy she was totally obnoxious, always demanding attention and if she didn't have a job to do, she would find one of her own.. usually something I didn't approve of. She quickly learned names of individual toy items and bright girl that she is, also is able to generalize to some extent, so "ball" doesn't mean a specific ball.. it refers to any ball (for example). Some of Vic's commands and cues are:
"Do you want to be a workin' girl?" (This question totally excites her, she dances eagerly while she awaits the next command that she knows is about to happen)
"Get to work!"
"Find 'um" (I reserve this command for people only)
"Find the......" (fill in the blank with any of a huge number of items, ball, frisbee, glass, phone, etc)
"Get the ......" (same as above"
"Show me!" (used as is for humans, with the appropriate word tacked on if she's looking for an item... this is a great command for training refinds at home without a helper. Put something Saydee really wants where she can either see it, or smell it, but not get to it, then reward her efforts to show you what it is she wants".
"Pick it up" (an awesome command.. "It" refers to anything I want it to. I indicate "it" by cueing Vic with "yes" or "no". "no" is never a reprimand, just a cue that she hasn't gotten the right "it". )

Obviously, there are tons and tons more, but the "show me" and find commands are important.. and I do differentiate between human and non human.

I never let Vic play in her vest. That was strictly her workin' girl outfit.. and part of what triggered her excitement for "the job" as she soon associated it with finding people. After training times, we used to have dog play time (as well as our discussions of what we did/how we did, things we needed to improve on.. etc). All vests always came off at play time. Vic's working vest had places to attach glow sticks and as Vic is dark blue, I also kept a bell on her vest which helped with knowing where she was after dark.

As I had very cooperative family and friends, Vic learned early on that humans are silly critters and get lost at every opportunity. It helped to keep her focus on me (if she didn't.. I disappeared), as well as the people around her. It was a very rewarding :"game" for her and she always looked at it as such. Vic was retired at an early age due to health issues (Addison's and epilepsy) but has remained my partner.. although her roles and jobs have changed, much of what we did in SAR we have been able to put to use in other ways.

Some of the most critical traits I found in SAR work for the dogs:
Must love huimans and human attention beyond all else. A dog who doesn't care much about people is never going to work very hard if at all to find them.

Must have an extremely high level of confidence. This is developed through lots of public exposure and socialization. I took Vic to construction sites, the end of airport runways, etc... places with lots of noise to do basic obedience training exercises. I also took her to shopping mall parking lots, costco parking lots, etc.. Just to meet, greet and be greeted. We did lots of different surfaces, swiimming in all sorts of water, jumping, running, you name it, she did it. I learned that you should never teach a dog to climb up a ladder.. until you have first taught said dog to climb down a ladder. It makes people who are working on the roof REALLY unhappy when they have to carry a 45 pound poodle (who was delighted to find them all the way up on the roof) back down to the ground.. only to have her try to find them again. Sigh. SAR dogs need to comfortably tolerate being handled by anyone, anywhere, in case both of you are injured. All of that takes practice, confidence.. and lots of play and great rewards.

Learn to trust your gut instincts with Saydee. If it "seems" that maybe Saydee is trying to tell you something, believe me, she is. Part of being a K9 handler is learning to recognize dog cues, that little "pop" of the head and tail when they hit scent, that "follow me" look, etc. What at one time seems to be.. "I think she wants me to.." "I think she is maybe trying to..." After a time becomes a strong communication that you will not be able to misunderstand. Many times have I told about having a bone spur removed from my sinus (yuck), being released from the doctors care as fully recovered.. and making an appt a few weeks later with the same doctor. Why? Because Vic said my nose stunk. She didn't say the words, she didn't have to. There was simply no misunderstanding her body language. The ENT doctor was.. probably to put it really politely.. incredulous (yeah, we all know what he was thinking about the crazy poodle lady!) and offered to let me leave his office without billing me, if I left right then. I told him that I would trust my dog with my life and that if Vic says there's a problem, I believed her and he needed to check it out. It turns out that during the original surgery, a piece of bone had lodged in a different part of my sinus and had an abcess formation around it. Believe me it's not something you want going on anywhere, but when it is in such close proximity to one's brain.. well that's scary. I had been totally asymptomatic up to that point (eventually it would have gotten really ugly medically) and will always be grateful to Vic and her alerts so that the situation could be remedied before it became critical. Despite the ENT doctors disbelief, the confidence I had developed in Vic through SAR work, made me not doubt her or have any hesitation what so ever that there was something bad going on. The ENT doctor asked for a photo of Vic. <VBG>

Do keep a journal of all of your training with Saydee. This will become important as time goes on and should there ever be any question of training, you can produce your journal to document your efforts and you can't go back in time and remember what you worked on when.... I wasn't told about journaling.. and lost a lot of time that I should have been keeping records. It can also help you if you are writing your SAR related expenditures off on your taxes....

Hope that all helped, it's been several years since I've been involved in SAR work.

Best to both you and Saydee!