Dioritt

Hi. I have a small mini (was bred as a toy but has grown past the 11 inches into a small mini). All in all he's a lovely dog who's very easy to train and very intelligent but I have a problem with his relationship to my son.

My son is an adult but he has profound learning difficulties. He has no speech and, I think, just isn't asserting himself in a manner that Alfie (the dog) finds acceptable so he has no respect for him. This especially a problem is my son tries to take anything from him. Alfie's something of a thief so will steal things to chew on. He doesn't steal my things anymore but he does steal my son's. When my son tries to take them back, Alfie bites him. I'm not talking nips here, I'm talking proper bites that bleed. OK, they could be harder and he could do a lot more damage but it still isn't acceptable.

How can I get him to respect my son more? I know he wouldn't dare bite me or any other member of my family (they don't live with us but they visit often) but when it comes to my son, Alfie seems to think he's top dog and can do whatever he likes.

Alfie is 8 months now and it's a couple of months since he stopped nipping me (he's never bitten me).

Any advice would be welcomed.

fjm

I had friends visiting whose daughter (about 10 at the time) is a gifted mimic, and did a very good act of being a puppy. I quickly called a halt, as I could see the dogs were getting to the point where they would correct her as if she were another dog, rather than a human. Once the child sat upright in a chair, and behaved like in a way they thought more appropriate to a proper person, all was well.

I suspect that you need to work with your son and your dog very much as you would if he were still a small child, and that means supervising all interactions. Possession is a eleven tenths of the law as far as dogs are concerned, and Alfie can obviously see no reason why he should accept what is, in his eyes, your son's rude behaviour. Can you teach your son the swapsies game? Or play it with him and Alfie? Give Alfie a low value toy, then offer him a much better treat. When he gives up the toy, give him the treat, and then give him back the toy. If your son can learn to play a variant of this game with him, and to use a gesture or sign for "please give it to me", it could make for a very much happier relationship between the two of them.

__________________

To sit with a dog on a hillside on a glorious afternoon is to be back in Eden,
where doing nothing was not boring- it was peace.

~ Milan Kundera

Dioritt

Thanks for your reply. It's appreciated. The problem is that Alfie doesn't like giving up anything so although he'll "leave" if he hasn't actually got something in his mouth yet, telling him to drop something is a different kettle of fish. However, as I said, both myself and other family members can take it from his mouth, apart from Paul. I'm currently working on the "give" as I do believe this will make things easier for Paul (and a dog with good manners should give without having to have his jaws prised open), and we're definitely going to need a hand signal that Paul can do (all commands so far have hand signals that Paul can manage). I don't think offering him a treat or another toy will work at the moment because it's the actual possession Alfie seems to like, regardless of what it is (eg, he'd rather have a piece of tissue that he already has, than a piece of steak that's offered to him). I'm actually not sure what to use to "swap" with or whether there's a different way of going about this with him. I actually think it's partly turned into a game with him now, to see whether he can hang on to the prize or whether we can get it off him. Obviously I did something wrong along the line and now I'm going to have to sort it out. In the meantime I've told Paul not to try to take anything from Alfie but to tell me and I'll do it.

Paul does do his share of training with him. Once I've taught him a command then Paul will do it too and more often than not, Alfie will do it (although because he doesn't have the same respect for Paul, he will sometimes completely ignore him, even when treats are involved).

fjm

Sounds as if you really do need to teach Alfie the swapping game, and then teach it to Paul. It makes teaching Give much easier. It may not be lack of respect that causes Alfie not to obey him - dogs are very specific in how they learn (if this human stands in front of me in the sitting room and waves her hand like that and makes a noise beginning with "sssss" and I sit, something good often happens). It may simply be that without the history of reinforcement, Alfie simply does not recognise Paul's requests as being for anything he can do. And at 8 months he is coming into the silly teenage months, when he will seem to forget much of what he once knew, and take considerable delight in finding ways to wind you up - Keep Away being one of the all-time favourites!

I think I would set up some training sessions for swapping - if he loves paper tissues, make those the reward, and get the vacuum out afterwards! I would also try very hard not to react when he gets hold of stuff he shouldn't have - I imagine it is very difficult to keep all important items out of his reach, but the less excitement there is when he "steals" somthing, the sooner the game will become boring and he will find something else to do. Exciting games of tug, using a toy and starting and finishing when you decide - plus games of Keep Away with a specific toy, may also help. Just as much fun for him, but under your control rather than his.

But I have to admit that the moment I pick up the phone and sit down for a chat, Sophy goes on the prowl for tissues, paper bags, or anything else that she can parade past me and start tearing up noisily around the corner! I always think I have put everything out of her reach, and she always proves me wrong - but thanks to lots of games when she was a pup, she also lets me have the bits without any fuss.

Poodles are very bright - persevere, be consistent, and you will get there in the end.

__________________

To sit with a dog on a hillside on a glorious afternoon is to be back in Eden,
where doing nothing was not boring- it was peace.

~ Milan Kundera

Chagall's mom

Diorritt: I really encourage you to give fjm's advice a try.

If it's any consolation, my husband is a softie and I had to teach HIM to do "trade it" (swapsies) with Chagall, who was very fond of kleenex and newspaper as a pup. A nice piece of hot dog, bacon or liver worked to ensure a peaceable trade. (Though my husband was nearly as keen to eat the treats as our mpoo!)

Is Paul in a position to feed Alfie? If so, can he command Alfie to sit, place his food in his bowl and then release Alfie to eat it? That can go a long way to helping Alfie understand Paul's importance in the household.

Please keep turning to the forum for support with this, I do think there are enough folks here who can offer a variety of ideas to help you. And best of luck going forward!

JE-UK

I second the swapsies recommendation ... it's an invaluable tool. I once managed in the park (in the dark, no less), to get Vasco to swap me for an ENTIRE BRICK OF CHEESE that he had found. No idea how it ended up in the park ... we are used to teenager/fast food trash, but that was a new one.

Start with swaps for the least enticing thing you can find, and offer really good treats in return. A toy he doesn't really care about, a piece of cardboard, doesn't matter, just something he really doesn't care about. Gradually work up to things that he DOES care about, but always offer MUCH better treats, then give him back the original item if possible. He learns "cool! not only do I get a treat, I get the thing back too!".

Poodles seem to LOVE the keep away game, so every time you chase him down you are rewarding him. I play "legal" chase games to give mine an outlet. I'll say "GIVE me that!!!" which is his cue to run away, and I chase after him. That is the only time I chase him. It's difficult, but if you can bear some tissue bits in the house, try not to chase the dog for them. If he sees that YOU don't care about the item, he will care less about it.

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"Yes is so much important than No." Dominique Barbier

Dioritt

Thank you all so much for your replies. Just knowing there's support out there to help us through this helps a lot.

First of all, we never play chase with him. Paul used to do it but he knows now not to as that just incites Alfie to steal more things so that he'll be chased.

Last night I helped Paul play swapsie with Aflie. As I said, he'll give me stuff he's stolen (or a toy he's playing with or whatever) without any fuss but clearly Paul needs to work on this a lot more with him. Alfie had stolen a huge teddy bear from Paul's room that Paul has had for years (Paul is always forgetting to shut his door so it's become one of Alfie's favourite hunting grounds) and was dragging it around. Paul immediately went to take it away and was growled at so I told him that now we're going to train how to get things back without being bitten. Paul was up for that.

What we did was get Alfie doing some training. Paul got the treat box out and immediately Alfie left the Teddy and was excitedly prancing around Paul waiting for a command. In the meantime Paul removed the teddy, put it on the chest of drawers where Alfie couldn't get it and they proceeded to do figures of eight through Paul's legs, spins and other stuff that Alfie's good at and Paul is able to use handsignals for, and the teddy was forgotten. Alfie enjoys his training sessions so it seems that may be a way for Paul to teach Alfie to leave things? That the reward is a few minutes training with treats?

Paul's been out with his carer today so I've been doing swap with Alfie and his favourite toys/an envelope he found (where? I've no idea. It seems poodles can find stuff we humans can't even see!). That went fine, but then it always does. I don't even need to swap to get him to leave something. 'Give' is a little more difficult - I usually have to open his mouth and take it, but hopefully that'll improve now we're doing swapsie. I've also clicked him before giving the treat, every time he's given me the toy/envelope without any fuss.

Some friends also popped in this afternoon. Alfie stole tissues from my friend's handbag and wouldn't give them back to her. I gave her a treat and asked if she'd try swapping. It worked. He gave back the tissues even though the treat was just a boring piece of his own kibble (it was all I had on hand at the time - we'd used up all the good stuff earlier and I hadn't got round to refilling his treat box).

Hopefully, once Alfie's learned swapping for a treat is a good option, he'll do the same for Paul without the training session. Not that a training session's bad, but it isn't always suitable.

Again, thanks for your help. It really is appreciated.

Dioritt

Oh, I just thought I'd mention that when I say I don't need to swap to get him to leave something, it isn't because he's never treated for doing that. It's just that he's been doing it well since he was a baby so he's now down to only being offered a treat for leaving at a ratio of about 1:5 so he never knows whether he's going to get one or not now.

I was actually really surprised he's swap for my friend because as I've said, usually a piece of tissue is far more exciting than any treat I can offer, but perhaps the training I'd done earlier in the day was getting through. I certainly hope so

Also, I forgot to reply re Paul feeding Aflie. Yes, Paul can make him lay down and wait while he fixes his food and puts it down for him. That's never been a problem. Sometimes (although this is only very occasionally) Alfie will get pushy with him and try to get up and get the food before he's been given the release command (which is a particular noise Paul makes) but it hasn't been a problem. Once he's told to go right back where he was and lay down again, he does.

fjm

It sounds as if you are all well on the way already - and I am very impressed at how much Paul can do with Alfie using hand signals.

__________________

To sit with a dog on a hillside on a glorious afternoon is to be back in Eden,
where doing nothing was not boring- it was peace.

~ Milan Kundera

Dioritt

People have always been very impressed with what Paul's been able to do with our dogs using just hand signals and sounds (rather than the words the rest of the family use). He can't actually train anything new, but once a dog knows something Paul is very good at putting them through their paces. I guess it helps that he's grown up with dogs