peppersb

I hope that some of you who are experienced dog trainers can help.

My girl Cammie is 8 months old. I have been very happy with the way she behaves at the dog park. She runs across the park to meet and greet and then comes flying back to check in with me and pick up a treat. She also has been very good at coming when called, picking up a treat, and then running off to play again. I call her frequently to reinforce this. And when it is time to leave, she comes and sits beautifully while I put her leash on. Very good girl.

Until two days ago. On Sunday, when it was time to leave, she decided that she would play the "you can't catch me" game. I've seen other dogs, even other poodles play that game, but not my Cammie. I HATE that game!!!! Of course, she's better at it than I am. We actually couldn't leave until a dog park friend was able to grab her collar. Since she had been so disobedient, I went up to her looked her in the eyes and said loudly and firmly "NO, BAD GIRL."

As soon as we got home, I called my trainer (I have someone who has been training me--I train the dog, she trains me). I described what had happened and asked if I was wrong to tell my Cammie that she was a bad girl. She said, yes. I was wrong. So WHAT DO I DO????? My trainer said I should not play my dog's game but come up with my own game. Change the rules. So when Cammie runs away from me, I ignore her and run away from her. Hopefully, she forgets her game, wonders what I am doing and comes running after me. Hopefully. But I should not yell at her. Everything should be positive. Sounds like the kind of thing fjm or JE-UK would say. How can everything be postive when your dog is being a bad girl?

The problem has persisted yesterday and today. I try to run away instead of running after her, but at some point I still need to turn around at get that leash on her. She still likes the catch me if you can game.

Finally today I arrived at this compromise. The leash stays on her. She drags it through the mud while she plays. I call her frequently and tell her to sit. Each time she comes, treats are accompanied by me touching her around her head, neck and back and petting her and telling her she is a good girl. Frequently I need to step on the leash to be able to do that (otherwise, she'd run away without the treat). Is this a good approach???

Any comments would be appreciated. Feel free to tell me I'm all wrong!

petitpie

I've had the "Catch me" game, too, and would like to know how to "catch" the poodle!

Fluffyspoos

I know that when your dog runs from you it's frustrating, but you have to realize that she won't come to you if coming to you means she's gets scolded. Have treats on you and play the 'Catch me' game in return, make sure she sees you (so you don't look like an idiot running around the park for no reason like I have) and then run in the opposite direction.

You'll see trainers at fly ball competitions doing this to get their dogs to run faster on the retrieve.

When she gets to you PRAISE PRAISE and treat! Coming to you should be much more fun and interesting than whatever she was doing before.

If I can call Vegas off of retrieving his ball (I come second to the ball) then you can do this!

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fjm

Yep - it is exactly what I would say! As FS says, coming to you has to be more wonderful and more fun than running away from you - and she will associate the scolding with being with you, not with the game that for her is now over and done with.

I've found the dog's best reward for coming is sometimes to be sent back off to play - if they are really having fun they don't want to hang around for treats or fuss, but to actually be encouraged to go and play again? Wow!

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To sit with a dog on a hillside on a glorious afternoon is to be back in Eden,
where doing nothing was not boring- it was peace.

~ Milan Kundera

PaddleAddict

You should never scold a dog for coming to you, even if "coming" was you snagging her collar. She is not going to connect the punishment with the fact that she was playing the catch me game, she is going to associate the punishment with coming to you.

Good advice here. Also, she is entering the terrible teens. Expect lots of testing and naughtiness in general. Try not to get frustrated with her, she will sense your negativity. You will get your good girl back eventually, but in the meantime, rev up the training and keep it positive.

tokipoke

I've been letting Leroy off leash almost every day. He LOVES the room to run and do crazy zoomies. His favorite game is - surprise! - for me to chase him while he runs around with a stick in his mouth. We play the chase game for about 30-45 minutes. While playing this game, I throw in me running the opposite direction every now and then. He'll also lose the stick and so I go and get a new one. He follows me in whatever I'm doing but I don't try to "nab" him. I also will sit down or squat to take a breather and have him come up to me, I pet him and send him off again. I tried to end the chase game early tonight, and he ran away. So I just went with it and we played some more. I was so out of breath I took a few seconds to breathe, and he came up to me breathing the same way lol. I petted and praised him and nonchalantly put the leash on him. I think it helps when "coming to mommy" doesn't equate to "all fun is over." You might want to go through the motions of leaving but let her keep playing. I'm not sure if it's because Leroy is a velcro poodle but he will run off a few ways, stop and wait for me. He is always watching to see what I do. I also play hide and seek with him to keep him on his toes.

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Quossum

I'm doing Susan Garrett's Recallers course right now, and I have to say there are some real paradigm shifts in thinking involved, and some great foundation exercises. One of the fundamentals is to work over and over at being able to touch or grab the dog's collar, for example. Her training methods also involve no verbal or physical corrections. In this situation, she would say, "Your dog isn't blowing you off or being a 'bad girl.' Your dog is showing you where the value is."

Cammie running from you in the dog park is giving you helpful information. It's telling you that the other dogs and running about hold more value than you at this point. Obviously, you want to be the source of highest value for her. Work on recalls and fun games in other environments. Recall, leash her up as if leaving, then stop and let her loose again, so coming back to you doesn't always mean the fun is over. Have an very special, A++ treat, her favorite food of all time (chicken breast? Steak?) and give it to her *only* when you leave and put her in the car--this builds value for leaving the park. She is a "teenager" in dog terms, so this might be a good time to institute a Nothing In Life Is Free program (info all over the web or get the book *Ruff Love*) for her, in which *you* control her access to reinforcement, aka All Good Things.

Apologies for the long-winded response, but recall problems are relationship problems, not quick-fixes usually, and it's good you're jumping on this one now. Don't end up like my neighbors, who got a darling little puffball of a Shih-Tzu which they played with in their frot yard regularly. Now the pup in eight months old and runs away any time it can. They boys will and try to catch it, usually having to sneak up and grab it when it's distracted, but the dog is only going to get harder and harder to catch if they don't do some foundation work. And the puppy might not be lucky long enough for that to happen. :(

--Q

peppersb

Thanks to all of you for your replies. Special thanks to Quossom who gave me a lot to think about. I do think it is a paradigm shift. I like this positive stuff--the "dog is giving you information" idea, etc. Just trying to put it into practice and build a good relationship with my girl! And funny that you should mention NILIF. Just last night, I was thinking that would be a good idea and I made her sit before she got her supper! Normally I just give it to her, but I'm thinking that should change. We're doing a lot of recalls at the park. We always did, but now each treat is accompanied by me petting her head, neck and back. This morning, I tried taking the leash off, and she came for a couple of recalls. But then she did not want to sit while I touched her neck area, so the leash went back on. She played with other dogs while dragging the leash behind her. We did a lot more recalls and she did pretty well. Both of the dog parks that I go to are unfenced, so no room for error as we get near to the edge of the park.

JE-UK

I LOVE this! What a great way to express it!

At 8 months, the dog is entering her terrible teenage period ... mine hit his at 9 months and it was as if we'd never done any training. Grit your teeth and you'll get through it .

Dogs are FANTASTIC at discerning cause and effect. If leash or recall means "the fun ends", the dog is going to make that connection quickly. To avoid it, practice recalls and putting the leash on and off at a ration of a dozen to one, where a dozen times, the dog gets sent back to play and one time it's time to go home.

I'm really lucky that we have public footpaths that go for miles, occasionally crossing a road. That means we get lots of practice at recall, leash on, cross the road, then leash off and the walk continues.

Even now, I make sure I practice recalls ten or twenty times on each walk.

And remember that training happens every time you interact with your dog. Working with you should be the most fun, most rewarding, most exciting thing the dog does in the day!

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"Yes is so much important than No." Dominique Barbier

peppersb

JE-UK -- Thanks for this heads-up! I got Sophie and Bob (my other poodles) when they were well into adulthood. So this is my first experience with a puppy or a "terrible" teenager. Quite a learning experience! Just when I thought she was doing so well... Glad to hear that I'm not the only one to see little Miss Perfection become filled with her own opinions about where we are going and what we are doing...