cowgirllauralou

Has anyone used this method of training their Standard Poodle?

Thanks, Laura

JE-UK

IMO, they are abominations.

There are far more effective training methods, ones that don't involve shocking the sh*t out of your dog.

They've been banned in Wales, and I hope the ban soon extends to the rest of the UK.

Why do you ask?

cowgirllauralou

I've trained my last two dogs using this method, but neither of them were Poodles. The e-collars I've used were always low stimulation & at 1/100th of a second. Never have to shock the sh@t out of the dog. Poodles seem to be so darn smart, they would seem to catch on even quicker than my GSD (may he rest in peace). I was hoping there were other Poodle owners who used this method to talk to.

Countryboy

We have owners *a married couple* in our group who use the e-collars on their three Partis. They swear by it. And I've seen it in action.

A tap on the button will deliver a mild tingle to the neck of the dog who will immediately desist in whatever undesired behavior they're engaging in. *N'mind . . another coffee will hopefully restore my sense of grammar. lol*

They don't use it for other training as far as I know. Their dogs are 'treated' thru Rally and Agility courses.

...Frank...

Teffy

I've never used them, and honestly am closed to the idea.

I grew up with a GSD, trained her myself when I was 11 years old. I taught her all the basic obedience commands and tricks and, heeling off leash. They are damned smart. Saying that, 4 years ago I got my first poodle and...IMO, though I am a big GSD fan and I was only a kid when I trained her, poodles are far smarter.

On top of that, they have softer temperaments and I don't know if this is something to consider, but they don't have a double coat like GSDs. Would the shock be felt more? I don't know.

As long as you get a poodle from a good breeder that breeds for everything AND stable temperaments, you should be fine without it, you'll look like a superstar in obedience class.

Sookster

How I feel about them depends entirely on the technology involved (voltage vs static) and how they are used (training vs correction). I am totally opposed to using voltage based "shock" collars to shock a dog as a correction. However, I do train using remote electronic collars that use static technology (the exact same technology as a tens unit, for those of you who know what that is). We train, we don't correct with the collars, and they are used on absolutely the lowest level necessary to get the dogs attention. A tap on the remote causes a muscle contraction that serves a function similar to a tap on the shoulder, and is used solely for the purpose of focusing the dogs attention on the task at hand. Are there other methods of training that work? Yes. However, I find using remote collars to be one of the most effective tools for getting your dog to be completely and totally reliable off-leash, and they allow me to let my dog be off-leash and completely under control in situations where that otherwise may not be possible. For basic obedience training, I don't think that remote collars are necessary, and it is just personal preference in training methods. But used correctly, these collars are both safe and humane. I find the static collars to be much, much more effective and humane than traditional "training" (choke) and prong collars, and I believe they are more comfortable and humane than traditional "leash" training, which involves lots of "jerks" on the leash and leash corrections.

You are going to find varying opinions, some highly opposed and others who think it is a godsend. It will ultimately be for you to decide for yourself what you feel will be best for your dog. I can say that Nova has responded very well to remote training. I have seen a huge turn around in her attitude (she went from being pretty dull to being exuberant and outgoing) and confidence level since starting training with the remote. The results didn't take an eternity to obtain (as has been my experience with traditional leash and collar training) and she is exceptionally reliable, even in really distracting environments (which to me is the major flaw with using only clicker training; I feel it takes a really long time for the responses to be conditioned to a level where they are reliably produced, even amongst heavy distractions).

So that is my two cents on it. Good luck finding a training method that works for you

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CT Girl

I don't know enough about shock collars to be for or against. My gut says no. I honestly don't think you will need this. Swizzle loves to learn and to please. With this combination I don't think you should need to go to this extream.

JE-UK

IMO, the language used to describe how shock collars work is deceptive and self-delusional ... "tingle", "static", "stimulation". I don't know why, if people want to shock their dogs into submission, they should just say so.

If there is no pain involved, why is the dog responding? Why would a dog respond to a "tap" from a shock collar and not from a whistle from the handler, if the "tap" is an attention-getter only?

There's some very interesting research that's been done on their use. I'll try and dig up the study, but in summary:

- 3 sets of dogs were used, one control group, one where the shock was applied at precisely the point the dog was engaging in the behaviour, and the third where the shock was applied a few seconds before or after (to mimic the hopeless timing of the usual pet owner).

- All three sets were taken in a closed van to the same (indoor) training location.

- All three sets had four or five rounds of training, where the shock collar groups were shocked for not recalling.

- They measured salivary cortisol levels on all three groups (cortisol is a stress indicator)

- When they returned the dogs to the location 2 weeks later, no shock collars and no training sessions, just the same location, the cortisol levels in group two were triple the normal rate, and the third group had cortisol levels nearly 10 times higher, demonstrating extreme stress just by being the location where they'd been shocked 4 or 5 times before.

As a side note, the professional dog trainers brought in to take part in the actual trials were as upset and stressed as the dogs.

Again, just my opinion, but I think they are both barbaric and a lazy way to "train".

fjm

Agreed, JE - if it does not hurt, it has no impact on behaviour, and why on earth choose punishment based training when there are far better methods? A vibrating collar for a deaf dog is another matter, of course.

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To sit with a dog on a hillside on a glorious afternoon is to be back in Eden,
where doing nothing was not boring- it was peace.

~ Milan Kundera

Sookster

JE-UK, I find it kind of offensive that you refer to me as "deceptive" and "delusional". I think we can keep this thread pleasant and educational, without being rude or disrespectful of each other. There are nearly as many different training methods out there as there are kinds of dog, and there are going to be differing opinions. Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they are "delusional".

In response to your remarks, there is nothing deceptive about comparing different types of electric current. It is something every person who attends public school learns about in an elementary school science class. Static electricity, the kind that makes your hair stand out on crisp winter days or that you feel when you scuff your feet on the floor then touch a door knob, is a completely different thing than the kind of electric current you experience if you stick your finger in an electrical outlet or grab hold of an electric fence. This is the difference in the types of electronic collars out there. The OP asked for opinions, and I want them to be aware that if they decide to go the electronic collar route, they need to do their research and be aware that there is more than one type of collar and more than one method of training with it. To the OP, I also suggest that if you decide to go the electronic collar route that you find a professional trainer who can help you learn to use it appropriately.

Those who know what a tens unit is know exactly what I am talking about when I say that the collar I use causes a "tingling" muscle contraction. A tens unit is a piece of medical equipment that is used to alleviate pain in people which back pain and women who are in labor during childbirth. The unit consists of patches that are placed directly on the areas that are painful, and the static stimulation causes a muscle contraction that increases blood flow to the area, reducing inflammation and pain.

Can you whistle and get your dogs attention? Well, yes. And whistling isn't painful yet it can still work. How is that? The dog is conditioned to know what the whistle means. A collar doesn't have to be painful to be effective. I'm not sure why this logic is coming forward when so many other training methods use conditioned responses without inflicting pain. In early training, the dog is conditioned to understand what the collar means. Are there other ways? Of course there are, that is the art and beauty of dog training. Again, it is a matter of preference which one you decide to choose.

I am very familiar with the study you mention. They are using high intensity shock collars as a correctional tool. This is one way that you can use electronic collars, and not the way that I suggest using them. I feel that any method of training that is correction/punishment based (whether it uses a shock collar, alpha rolling, grabbing your dogs scruff and yelling at/hitting them, choke collars and leash corrections, etc) is going to create a training environment that is stressful for the dog. I do use a remote collar, but it is 1) used as a neutral stimulus, not as a punishment and 2) a low-intensity static collar. So it is very different from the situation described in the study. And Nova is far from the stressed out dogs that this study resulted in.

In closing, it is completely and totally fine for you to disagree with me and to be against remote collars completely, in whatever form they come in. As I have now mentioned numerous times, there are a blue million training methods out there, and you have people that stand by each one with their life. However, please be civil in your comments. Share your opinions, but do it in a manner that that is respectful of the opinions of others, because we are all entitled to our opinions.

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