Princess Dollie

I had to look up tens unit and, to my surprise, have experienced one at the chiro (didn’t know that’s what it was called) for bursitis in my shoulder. That was the most relaxing “massage” that I’ve ever had!

Quossum

Very controversial topic. I know in some realms of dog training (field work, for example) the use of e-collars is very well accepted and even expected, to the extent that I've heard it said that a great field dog can't be obtained without one. (I'm sure there are field trainers out there who feel otherwise!) I've seen them very misused, and have heard some disastrous stories about them.

For the most part, as far as pet dogs are concerned, I lean away from their use except in life-or-death situations--de-snaking, for example. That said, I've also seen an e-collar used to get an inveterate crate-barker to stop, and it was effective. Though that's not a life-or-death situation, no doubt anyone crated next to that dog in the future will be grateful. (This owner is an experienced trainer and tried a lot of other methods, but non-stop barking is so self-reinforcing and hard to correct with the owner not present...)

I'm sure e-collars are effective, very effective if used absolutely correctly. But even the mildest shock collar is an aversive, and ideally I prefer to train without applying aversives. When / if an aversive is absolutely necessary, I would rather it be the withdrawing of my attention, not the addition of an uncomfortable stimulus. The ear-pinch retrieve is another example of a very effective aversive, in which a trainer applies an unpleasant stimulus to a dog in order to train the dog to do something. Does it work? Sure. Quicker than a purely positive retrieve? Heck, yeah. But at what cost?

I inflict unpleasant sensations upon my dog all the time: I take her to the vet to get a shot, I give her baths and blow-dry her with a high-velocity drier (which she hates), I put her away in the utility room when I leave the house--just leaving a pack animal alone for hours at a time is an unhappy thing for her, I'm sure. Since there are so many unpleasant things I have to do to her, I choose not to do unpleasant things to her during training.

I hadn't heard about this static e-collar that Sookster mentions. Does it truly cause no pain, like the vibrating collar for deaf dogs that fjm mentions? If it produces a sensation like static electricity, like touching your car door after getting out on a cold day, then I would still call that an aversive, albeit a mild one. (Well, for me it would be a major aversive, as I find the jolt of static electricity one of the worst sensations ever! Not as bad as getting slapped, mind you, but still...!) If it truly is like a "tap on the shoulder," well, I don't know. Would that be equivalent to a kind of long-distance attention-getting mild leash pop? 'Cause I don't like leash pops. I'd have to put the collar against my own neck and feel it before I'd even think of using it on my dog.

Definitely food for thought, but I come down on the side of "No."

--Q

Sookster

To answer your question, Quossom, the collar I use (there are other models, this is just one in particular that is manufactured by SportDog) has 8 levels. Most humans cannot even feel the lowest levels (I feel it on level 2, but cannot feel level 1; some people can't feel it until level 3), and most dogs work on these levels (for example, Nova works on level 1 and 2 98% of the time). The higher levels, 7 and 8, can be uncomfortable. These are the levels that I would say feel similar to what you feel if you touch the car door on a winter day and get a static shock. Your typical underground fence collar or "bark" collar's lowest setting is several times more uncomfortable/intense than this collar's highest level. I have personally never met a dog that works any higher than a 4 or 5 (when I say "works" I mean that this is the level that the dog "feels" the collar). As far as a comparison to a long distance leash pop... maybe kind of but not really? If it were used as a correction, then yes I think you could probably use that as a comparison. But with the method that I use, the collar is not used as a correctional tool. This also makes timing slightly less critical, making it easier for your average pet owner to use correctly. During the very first training session when working with a new dog, the first thing that I do is teach timing to the dog's owner. I do this by "wearing" the collar myself and having them pretend I am the dog and give me commands as they would the dog, using the remote, in order for them to practice their timing. Only once they have the timing down is the collar transferred to the dog. It isn't meant to be an aversive, but used incorrectly (on too high of a level for a given dog, used as a correction, etc) it could probably become an aversive. This is why I recommend getting the help of a professional trainer if someone decides to go this route.

I do agree that your average pet dog can be trained perfectly well without the remote collar, though. Sonya, my other standard, has never worn a remote collar and behaves almost as well as Nova (she is also still very puppy-like even at a year old, and I attribute her mischievousness to that rather than lack of remote collar training). It is definitely not the only nor the best way to train every dog. Most people that come to us for training come after trying other trainers in the area with limited or no success. We deal with a lot of dogs with separation anxiety, general anxiety issues such as crate barking, aggression towards humans or dogs, resource guarding, etc. The remote can be very helpful in overcoming these types of issues as you mentioned in your post.

Hope this helps answer some of your questions

__________________

JE-UK

Apologies if you were offended; I was careful to characterise the language as disceptive, not you. If you reread, you'll see I was commenting on the community of people who choose to use shock collars, not directing criticism to you personally. Differences of opinion are healthy, especially as regards training dogs. However, I would prefer it if proponents of aversive, pain-based training methods would just be honest about using punishment, rather than run the risk of misleading pet owners who casually read these forums that such methods are pain- and risk-free.

Shock collar manufacturers are particularly guilty of putting a pretty (and deceptive) face on outdated, ineffective and cruel methods in order to sell their products.

There can't be any such thing as a static collar; it's a term co-opted by the shock collar vendors specifically to mislead. Static is defined as "Electric charge that has accumulated on an object. Static electricity is often created when two objects that are not good electrical conductors are rubbed together, and electrons from one of the objects rub off onto the other."

(Pause while I give myself a giggle by imagining a complicated MacGyver-type collar that involves a tiny motor that rubs a small bit of rubber over a small bit of carpet.)

Again, no intention to offend, but there is no such thing as a neutral stimulus. Even if it's unpleasant, rather than painful, it is still an aversive. And see above for comments on "static". If it has a battery, it isn't static electricity.

I'm glas your dog is fine with your approach. One of the overwhelming gifts dogs give us is the forgiveness for the rotten things we do to them. The fact that lots of dogs have, over decades, managed not to be permanently damaged by being trained with this method is not an argument for continuing to risk damaging future dogs. How easy is it, when the inevitable training frustrations occur, to dial that collar up to painful levels?

There's an interesting study here on use of shock collars in training police dogs in the Netherlands, with a specific emphasis on trying to see if there were long term effects. A particularly heart-breaking comment "One of our study dogs still behaved as though it received shocks during protection work
although the last shock was delivered 1.5 years before!"

I don't understand your defense of them, to be honest.

If you aren't using the collar at a painful setting, for punishment training, then why use it at all? Again, how is it any more different than using a whistle for a distance "heads up" indicator? And if you are using it to inflict a pain correction, why not just say so?

It seems contradictory to defend a tool specifically designed to inflict pain at a distance as something that is okay because it is possible to set it at a non-painful setting.

I used to hear lots of defense of horrific spade bits in horses, using the same logic. According to conventional wisdom, they were only to be used on well-trained horses (who didn't need them) by well-trained riders (who also didn't need them) with sensitive hands. Invariably they ended up in the mouths of untrained horses with heavy-handed riders, which is the best way I know to ruin a horse's mouth in the shortest period of time.

I can just about get on board with the use of shock collars as an absolute last-resort training method, where the only alternative is death for the dog. But those situations are rare.

Sorry for ranting on. Part of the strength of my feeling on this is a result of guilt. I have never used a shock collar, but I've certainly, in the past, used training methods I am now ashamed of. I feel great regret for some of my past dogs. I don't think I was ever actively cruel, but I certainly would like a do-over.

Princess Dollie

I’m sorry. My subtlety seems to have gotten lost in the keyboard somewhere.

This is why I usually don’t respond to these types of threads. I have a training philosophy that I’m quite happy with so I don’t solicit (much, see How do you train Retrieve on Flat/Over High Jump? ) nor offer my opinion. Now that we are in the thick of Obed training, when I do need assistance, I tend to trust my local colleagues that I can see face-to-face.

However, I have had personal experience with a tens unit which I’m not sure any of the other posters have. The way this unit works is that it interacts with your muscles in that it contracts them and then allows them to loosen. The end result is NOT pain. At the worst, it is an eerily pleasant feeling.

I get this Rube Goldberg image in my mind of a mechanical hand on a stick that comes out of the back of the collar when the remote is pushed and taps the dog on the head. Would you consider that aversive? I don’t think I would. But would you consider it necessary? Again, I don’t think I would. Poodles are darn smart.

Thank-you, Sookster, for the informative posts. Actually, I may research this further. If it works the way I think it does, I would purchase this collar – for myself. I could use a neck rub……