Bald Runner

We have a Standard Poodle puppy – Jack - aged 5.5 months at the time of this post (4th May 2011)

Click me to see Jack

When we bought him, we had travelled a long way and it appears that he had been living in a stable with both parents and two siblings at an isolated house in Wales.
The litter had been born 21st November.
We bought the puppy and having had him four weeks, I am severely frustrated.
He is a very good natured dog with a healthy appetite and seems very loyal, following me everywhere in the house. But; when it comes to taking him for walks it is a nightmare. He will hardly walk at all outside. He will actually go outside but not very far. We live in a very quiet neighbourhood and he is reasonably comfortable near to our home. He plays in our garden all day, chasing balls etc.
If I take him elsewhere however, he just freezes. He will not walk between two parked cars. He will not walk between two gateposts. If I get him walking in the local forest, for example, the minute he sees another person coming towards us, he wants to go the other way. I have tried both a leash and a harness to no avail. He just sits or lies on his belly and no matter how hard you try to encourage him, he will not walk. I don’t like to drag him but have resorted to this very briefly on occasion and he does not give in.
I have been taking him to dog training classes and he will not participate in any of the exercises there. He will sit and stand, and lie down but when the other dogs are walking around the room, Jack dog will not.
The Trainer suggested I may have to drag him a bit to ‘encourage’ him but he just acted like a floor mop and even the Trainer said “Oh, you may have a problem there”.
You can see Jack is ‘overwhelmed’ with the presence of the other dogs and people. We have, as previously mentioned, had him four weeks and I hoped that he would have mellowed by now.
I have contacted a local Flyball group and although our dog is too young for Flyball, they have said that they may be able to assist with socialising.

I have had many dogs over the years, some from puppies, some rescued adults but I have never come across this type of thing.

Any advice welcome!

Thanks

Mark

Tucker57

I got my Shamus at about 5 months and, although he had been well socialised to other dogs (his breeder is also a groomer and runs a kennel), he was clearly not accustomed to the "normal" noises of suburbia.

Shamus wasn't nearly as bad as you describe, but I too really struggled to get him to walk on a leash outside of my own yard. He is still very easily startled. He hates cars, so walking near them is obviously stressful for him. When I see that he's stresses by something, I try to expose him to it with treats and encouragement to try to take some of the fear away. He's definitely improved a lot!

I think you just need to take it slow, providing lots of treats and encouragement when in situations that are stressful for him. I'm not sure I would push too much actual training until he's learned to relax a little bit.

Good luck!

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Tucker, Shamus and Stella

fjm

I agree - I would take the softly softly approach. Find a bench a short distance from where people will be passing by (or put a chair by your garden gate, if people pass by where you live), and settle down with your dog just to watch the world go by. Every time anything comes into view that might alarm him - person, dog, car, horse, cow - tell him how very interesting and pleasant it is, and give him a really good treat. Don't try to force him to face his fears, or swamp him - he has come from a background of very limited experience and socialisation, and has hit the big wide world just at the stage pups tend to go into a fear period, so is suffering from a double whammy. Take it slowly, and forget about long walks just at the moment - he will be too overwhelmed by everything around him to be able to enjoy them.

If you can find some sensible, well socialised adult dogs for him to learn from, that would be ideal. Walking with another dog he knows and trusts could improve his confidence enormously. JE reckoned in another post that owners of such dogs should set up in business - their services would be in huge demand!

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To sit with a dog on a hillside on a glorious afternoon is to be back in Eden,
where doing nothing was not boring- it was peace.

~ Milan Kundera

Purley

I got Lucy, my Mini, when she was five months old. I believe that she had spent her whole life in pens with other poodles.

I found this board and came here for advice. What I was told was to put the dog on the leash and find a hard surface, like concrete, and just walk away. Don't look back - don't encourage the dog -- just walk.

It worked for me! Maybe you could try this - I had to drag Lucy a bit at first too. You could give it a go and see what happens.

The other thing I would say is - don't talk to him in a baby voice - just use your matter of fact voice. Baby voice tends to reinforce the fact that the dog should be scared of something.

JE-UK

Unsurprisingly, FJM and I agree on this.

He's a baby, so I'd be wary of anything that smacks of punishment or 'forcing' him to do something.

Not to get too technical, but there are two types of learning that you can influence here: operant and classical conditioning. Operant describes the way the dog behaves with his environment, and classical describes how he feels about it. It's a bit futile to work on operant if the dog is fearful; you need to change his emotional state first. Imagine shutting a claustrophobic child in a dark closet and trying to teach her math ... doesn't work. For learning to take place, the dog has to be in a place where he's calm and receptive.

Most dogs don't need to be taught to feel good about the great outdoors, but your poor poppet has clearly missed some key steps in his development.

As FJM said, I'd take him someplace low-key, with things to look at and smell, equipped with REALLY good treats (chicken, left over roast, cheese) and work on associating very low level stimulus with really yummy stuff, trying to modify his emotional reaction from one of "omigod, it's so scary out here!!!" to "hey! where's my chicken?" Once he's confident in a quiet outside place, with not much being asked of him, you can start to expand his horizons.

caboodles

Where is his tail during walks?? Is it between his legs, or just hanging? Wagging?
If it's in between his legs, then he somehow has a fear of the great outdoors on lead. Whenever my pooches are unsure of a situation, I raise their tail for them and massage their pelvic bones or whatever they're called. Dogs are pretty simple.. so this is an easy to instantly get their brain thinking that the situation can be trusted until they keep it held up for themselves. I personally have found a lot of success doing this with mine!

The best way to encourage and support his is by helping him 50/50. You do 50% of the work, and he does the other half.. Simply pulling him on leash is trying to force him to do all the work himself, which he is not doing. So, another thing you can do is wheel barrow them (lift up their back legs and slightly push them forward to get their front legs working).

You are doing TWO things this way:
A) with them being in front of you, you are empowering them to take the more dominant position because when dogs walk in a pack, the most dominant one leads.
B) helping him 50/50 shows him you're there to support him and guide him through this tough obstacle he's facing. Once again, dogs travel in packs.. so they don't like doing things on their own.

Of course, you can always guide him with treats in order to encourage him to take steps forward but PLEASE be patient. Remove all watches, cell phones, whatever. You can't put a time frame on rehabilitating your dog. Everything will come with time. ALSO, be calm. Dogs absorb our energy.. so if you're nervous, odds are that your dog will ALSO be nervous at that moment. Another thing why it's important to remain calm because whenever a dog is unsure of a situation, he looks to his leader about how to react. So if he's nervous, but sees that you are calm... he will find it a lot easier to get into a relaxed state with you.

Hope this helps you, and I wish you all the best!
YOU AND JACK CAN BOTH OVERCOME THIS!!!

Bald Runner

Thanks Caboodles and indeed all respondents;

I do encourage him with treats and indeed I do the wheelbarrow thing after seeing Cesar Millan do a similar with a problematic Akita. Jack is coming on; in the last two days, he has developed s spring in his step and has walked further then ever before (but only in our neighbourhood). Noises still frighten him though. But, hey! it's a step in the right direction and I am more confident now that we will get there.

Thanks again

Mark

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He acquired his size from too much pi.

skinnydoggz

I wouldn't force him at all. I'd want him to know that I will keep him safe. I'm glad you are making headway. Just take it slow so he keeps gaining confidence. Keep up the good work.

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My little dog - a heartbeat at my feet. ~ Edith Wharton
Handle every stressful situation like a dog. If you can't eat it or play with it... pee on it and walk away.
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass; it's about learning to dance in the rain.

all that jazz

Your description of Jack's behavior, is how Jazz was when I first took him out at 3 months. He would not walk far, sit in the middle of the street and not move, and be startled by bird chirps, dogs, people, cars, etc. He even was scared of a plastic container that fell on the floor from the kitchen counter. This actually was all normal behavior given his age and I proceeded to socialize him. I took him out at least two times a day for a walk, even if it was a short one. I gave him a treat to encourage him to go ahead. If he sat, I let him sit for a couple of minutes before I urged him forward, so he would get more comfortable. I gave complete strangers treats to give to him, so he would be less fearful of them. I also took him to the dog park. All this ultimately worked, now we walk for a good 2-3 miles at a time. In your case, it sounds like Jack missed out on this early socialization period. He is young still though, and should come around. Just be patient and understanding.

outwest

Poodles are very sensitive, observant dogs. Early socialization is important for them to feel bold and confident about the world and themselves. Luckily, Jack is young enough that this isn't an insurmountable problem.

I would take him on very short walks at least once a day, more if possible. By short, I mean a block or even less. Do the exact same short walk, even if it is only 100 yards, for a few days. Once he has smelled everything in your immediate neighborhood (I call it 'reading the newspaper') and feels comfortable with this, you can lengthen the walks.

Since he doesn't appear to have been socialized at all, I would stop the group classes for a couple months and try again when he is more like 9 months old. It is just too overwhelming for him right now and could make things worse. He needs to feel good about himself before the classes will be successful.

One trick I learned a while ago to help a gentle puppy feel more confident is by playing tug of war with a toy. Let him win half the time. A bold dog wouldn't need this, but it can really help a gentle dog.

An obstinant dog that is bucking the leash is one thing and firm, loving treatment may be needed. Jack sounds like a fearful dog. For him, he needs to feel in control of himself before you force the issue by dragging him along. If he is food driven, take some cooked chicken with you to coax him forward. And remember, just make his initial walks very short so he can feel successful at them. You can do it several times a day is you have time.

Your puppy isn't sure about himself and his place in the world. He will be a wonderful dog with some extra effort from you. Enlist a few friends to help socialize him by giving them his favorite treats. They would call him and if he comes for a pet, he gets his treat.

I am sorry you have to deal with an unsocialized puppy - that is so much harder. He is a very cute puppy and certainly will make a wonderful, more confident dog with your help.

Please let us know about his progress!