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Signs of the times at Crufts

16K views 78 replies 20 participants last post by  papoodles 
#1 ·
Largely in response to the huge public outcry that followed the broadcasting of Pedigree Dogs Exposed three years ago, the UK Kennel Club has, amongst other measures, instituted veterinary checks for dogs in the 15 "High Profile" awarded Best of Breed before they go forward to the Group awards. These are the breeds that have shown the greatest degree of health issues due to breeding for extreme conformation. The checks were scheduled to start at Crufts this year - and everyone was rather expecting this to be a non-story, with dogs passed automatically. But so far three Breed winners have failed the tests - the Bulldog, Pekingese and Clumber Spaniel. It looks as if one vet at least has the courage to take on the Breed clubs! These are not dogs new to showing - at this level they usually already have multiple show wins and championships. Nor are they the most extreme examples of their breeds - judges have already been briefed on the revised conformation standards, which move away from extreme characteristics. If the pressure is maintained, it is going to force major changes in how dogs are bred for the conformation ring, in the UK at least.
 
#3 ·
Why do people see this as a good thing...do you honestly think that something like this will fix problems?

It won't, all they have done is taken 3 breeds and removed their chance to be represented in the group ring...its a farce to make people stop saying they aren't doing enough about health.

Stricter rules governing breeding would resolve health issues,
vet checking ALL of the class not just the BOB would discourage unhealthy dogs from being shown,

both just as difficult to implement as this whole scam yet with much better results...

WELLLLL thank gosh I live in the states and our Breed Clubs have more control over what happens at shows than what happens in the UK!

Will people like it as much when its their breeds that are chosen to be ostracized?

(now THIS is something that has been caused by PDE, and Jemima should be happy...or she should health test her flat coated retriever like the KC says all flat coated retriever owners have to do...and hers is 10yrs old and has yet to have those tests done ;D)
 
#4 ·
ok, so this might be inflammatory so I sincerely apologize if this is a hot button topic...

What do you think about allowing plastic surgery on conformation show dogs with over exaggerated features that cause medical problems. Like Pekinese that need nasal surgery due to the exaggeration of its nose placement?

Since this is breeding stock, it seems like the dogs should be able to be bred and produce puppies that don't need medical treatment?
 
#5 ·
I don't think thats infalmmatory (asking questions never is!)

I agree with you, unhealthy dogs shouldn't be bred...but I don't think just ONE dog should be vetted and the others ignored...why not vet them all?

This is IMO a halfassed way of controlling breeders...when breeders should be governed by their breed clubs and themselves (and only punished through the KC)
 
#7 ·
@keithsomething: I am sorry-I probably should have explained better that I wasn't asking that question to justify the OP, but just b/c that is a burning question I have about show dogs in general after seeing one of those "expose" type shows on dogs that have had corrective surgery, but are still able to be shown as ideal and become champions AFTER the surgery.

Yeah, it seems to me that if the AKC wanted to, they could require testing and disqualify from the RING any dogs that don't meet those standards, before it becomes as extreme as the OP case.

but again, I completely understand that there are many nuances of which I am uneducated about.
 
#8 ·
I absolutely agree that more needs to be done, Keith, and I would prefer to see all dogs vet checked before they are allowed to compete. The UK Kennel Club has something of a reputation for giving way to Breed Clubs/preferring to work by persuasion (depending on your point of view). This is at least a small signal of change, and I am prepared to C&T it, and hope it is maintained.

Meanwhile the campaign to stop the KC registering puppy mill litters continues!
 
#9 ·
I and a few of my breeder friends think it is about time!!!!!!!!!!! Too bad it took a documentary for the KC to see the light, but this is a step in the right direction! I hope they start doing this with every breed where we see significant change in structure and maybe breeders with begin to get the message. Stop messing with things for the sake of what we perceive to be beauty. When we takes things to where an entire breed of dogs cannot be bred naturally or whelp without a C-section, things have gone way too far!
 
#10 ·
I want to correct everyone, you're all giving credit to PDE...that rubbish had NOTHING to do with the changes the KC is implementing. You're giving credit to a woman who deserves NONE...that silly little woman jumped on a bandwagon halfway through the station and made a crappy documentary (full of lies and innuendo that the gullible public took as the golden truth!).

The KC has had the Breeder Scheme idea mulling around since 2000...PDE came out in 2008 (I think >.>)..so no it didn't make that happen
IF it has caused anything its this stupid idea that ONE dog can be vetted by ONE vet and that removes the chance of ANY breed representative in the ring

(OH and for those of you who say that ALL bulldogs are sickly...watch this video ;D)

 
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#54 ·
... PDE ... a crappy documentary (full of lies and innuendo that the gullible public took as the golden truth!).
...
Keithsomething, I am curious to know what, in particular, you regard as "lies and innuendo" in PDE. It is not very helpful to sling such general, accusatory remarks without substantiating them with particular instances.
 
#11 ·
Vets should NEVER be allowed to have a ruling decision in structure...and if anyone feels thats right then maybe that shouldn't be breeding. Unless that Vet happens to be a judge they do not know the breed standard and have no idea how to correctly judge that!!

Again, I'm happy I live in North America and breeders here wouldn't ever allow this to happen

First they came for the docked breeds and I did not have a docked breed so I said nothing. Then they came for the short nosed breeds and I did not have a short nosed breed so I said nothing. Then they came for the short legged breeds and I did not have a short legged breed so I said nothing. Then they came for my breed and there was no one left to speak out for us
 
#12 ·
The rules of the show are that if the dogs are lame or cannot breath they can be pulled. Obviously, one, the other or both were discovered in these dogs.

The people who should not be allowed to breed are those whose sole concern is the prestige of a win, with little or no regard to the quality of life of the dogs involved. Pretty dogs that turn heads that cannot breed naturally, cannot whelp naturally, cannot breath, are at risk of flying,...these are the folks who should not be breeding.
 
#13 ·
Keith - PDE may well have simply crystalised something that was already well known in certain circles (the BVA had been asking for change for years), but it certainly pushed it into mainstream thought in the UK - I don't know about the US, as I don't live there. It was not a perfect programme, nor has the response been perfect (far from it), but it has caused a shift in thinking on what is considered acceptable, and what is not, and has educated many, many dog owners and puppy buyers. I think it is unfortunate that questioning some breeding practices has in some circles reinforced the stigma against breeders in general, but I still think the overall effect is positive.

I would not dream of saying all bulldogs are unhealthy - or all pugs, german shepherds, or even cavaliers. But I think they have been bred to a conformation standard that predisposes them to a range of physical problems - from brachycephalic syndrome in pugs and bulldogs to mitral valve disease and syringomyelia in cavaliers - and that the incidence of those issues is such as to make it everyones concern that breeding practices should change - and vets, who are frequently asked to perform surgery to improve the quality of life of these dogs, have every right to be part of making that happen.

There was a very nice example of a bulldog bred to the revised standard on the Youtube video about the very issue of vet checking at Crufts.
 
#14 ·
What I'm trying to say is this. As breeders its OUR responsibility to check ourselves first, we need to regulate what is going on in our breed before it enters the ring. Then it is the judges job to chose the best example of the breed compared to the standard...a vet should never play a role in that (if a dog is clearly ill than the show vet should be called over to inspect it) they do NOT have the knowledge of the standard that breeders and judges do!

I want to say that the dogs that were kept out yesterday haven't had their vet reports made public by the KC...why? Because its MY opinion that THIS bulldog (photo attached) and this clumber (video attached) failed only because the KC NEEDED breeds to fail...you can't send a dog around the world and then at ONE show say it can't breathe going around the ring...yet it was able to fly half way across the planet from Croatia? Doubtful

Cumber Spaniel
 

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#15 ·
What I'm trying to say is this. As breeders its OUR responsibility to check ourselves first, we need to regulate what is going on in our breed before it enters the ring. Then it is the judges job to chose the best example of the breed compared to the standard...a vet should never play a role in that (if a dog is clearly ill than the show vet should be called over to inspect it) they do NOT have the knowledge of the standard that breeders and judges do!

I want to say that the dogs that were kept out yesterday haven't had their vet reports made public by the KC...why? Because its MY opinion that THIS bulldog (photo attached) and this clumber (video attached) failed only because the KC NEEDED breeds to fail...you can't send a dog around the world and then at ONE show say it can't breathe going around the ring...yet it was able to fly half way across the planet from Croatia? Doubtful

Cumber Spaniel
About the clumber, he has double ectropion, I don't see anywere in the standard that clumbers need to have ectropion, so a vet cannot tell what is ectropion but only judges can? in order to get their license do judges have to study medical problems like in a vet school?

This pic was posted in another forum :

http://www.dogworld.co.uk/shopimages/products/normal/mainsite/certificate.jpg

The breed standard:

Eyes: Clean, dark amber. Full light eyes highly undesirable. Acceptable to have some haw showing but without excess. Free from obvious eye problems.
DISQUALIFYING FAULTS.
• Any dog clearly showing physical or behavioural abnormalities shall be disqualified.
 
#16 ·
If the pressure is maintained, it is going to force major changes in how dogs are bred for the conformation ring, in the UK at least.
The Kennel Club of England announced one year ago that there would be vet checks for 15 high profile breeds. The press release which is available at Vet Checks For High Profile Breeds At Crufts 2012 And Championship Shows Thereafter - The Kennel Club goes on further to state:

The guidance which we will issue to Show Vets will focus on clinical signs associated with pain or discomfort which will come under the main headings of external eye disease, lameness, skin disorders and breathing difficulty. The show veterinary surgeons will be looking for signs such as ectropion, entropion, corneal damage, dermatitis, breathing difficulty on moderate exercise, and lameness. The fifteenth breed is the Chinese Crested where the principal issue will be the presence of skin damage arising from hair removal and thus signs of clipper rash or chemical insults to the skin will be looked for.

The top breeders of these fifteen breeds had ample time to health check the dogs eyes and show only dogs that could CERF, or were not lame or could not breathe. If breeders blame the ring/light conditions at Crufts then the breeders are admitting that their dogs are not physically fit to show.

If there were breeders at Crufts with dogs who have provable eye disease - would not pass a CERF - and these breeders are breeding them the shame is for the breeders who are perpetuating these diseases not the Kennel Club.

In my opinion I think this is a great step in the right direction. As for the need to do this for all dogs think back to racing - only the top race horses are tested for drugs. More power to stop unethical breeders who deliberately show and champaign dogs with health issues that can be readily seen.

The Poodle Club of Canada has refused for years to require members to health test providing only lip service to the issue of Poodle Health. The CKC could show they care about dogs by just enforcing the rules they already have - i.e. against foreign substances in coat and the drugging of dogs.
 
#17 ·
Well said Rayah! If you don't mind expanding though, what are you referring to when you say "drugging of dogs", this is new to me.

Keith - as per the video you recommended in regards to "healthy bulldogs". The breeder is putting a major effort into improving his breed, producing dogs with smaller heads that can whelp naturally. However, it also states that his dogs are not being recognized by the judges yet. It states that it will take time and a newer/younger (and IMO better educated) class of judges to recognize the healthier structure. This leads me to believe that the dogs that are winning are the snub nosed, large headed dogs who cannot be whelped without a C section. So no, not all bulldogs are unhealthy, but they sure aren't the ones being put up in the ring! Isn't the purpose of the ring to determine healthy breeding stock? In this case, that purpose is not being served.

As an aside, what purpose does docking a poodle tail serve? Other than esthetics? We do it because it looks nice, because a tailed dog will not be put up by some judges, we have a better chance of "finishing" a dog without a full tail. The standard states the "tail may be docked", yet the majority of judges will fault a dog with a natural tail (unless it was bred in the UK or other countries where docking has already been banned.

I wish they'd have 2 classes for poodles, natural and "done up", lol, then we'd all be happy. I love the classic look and beauty of a sprayed up poodle, but honestly don't feel that it represents anything other than "bling" in the ring. Good hair, wiggies and a pro groomer/handler are not indicative of a structurally healthy dog.

Sorry - Rant over, lol!
 
#18 ·
I have made no secret of the fact that I would love to see poodles shown in a short retriever clip, that really emphasised what shapely, athletic dogs they are. The fancy clips can look fabulous, but they do perpetuate the idea that the poodle is a frou frou dog, and we all know they aren't!

I absolutely agree with Keith that breeders should be ensuring the health and quality of dogs that are shown and bred - the problem, surely, is that in many breeds the idea of what fits most closely to the standard has become more and more extreme, until breeders - and even standards - accept as normal significant and known health issues such as visible haws (Clumber spaniels), screw tail (straight preferred in Bulldogs, but rarely seen), open fontanelle (Chihuahuas), etc, etc. It is well known that brachycephalic dogs have had a soft palate resection and still been shown - the owners claiming (and perhaps even convincing themselves) that it was a minor op for inflamed tonsils. Ditto eye tacking.

The issue is less one of deliberate fraud - I am sure there are some breeders who would do absolutely anything to ensure their dog wins, but I believe they are in the minority. It is more that these things have become the norm - as a long term breeder said in support of the disqualified Clumber spaniel, if that particular dog failed the eye test, then probably none of the show Clumbers could have passed. That is not an argument for changing or removing the test - it is a frightening comment on what selective breeding has done to the breed.
 
#19 ·
A big well done to the Kennel Club, and well done to Pedigree Dogs Exposed for shining a light on poor breeding practices/goals and the resulting unhealthy dogs.

Without PDE, the abuse would have continued.

In my view, the problems are all down to judges, who for decades have been awarding breed wins to unhealthy, unsound dogs. Judges are tightly linked to the breed clubs and their politics, and have shaped what breeders are breeding for.

I see the Kennel Club's move as a "well, if you can't clean your own house, we have no choice but to step in." And the vet checks make it absolutely clear that judges are putting up unsound dogs. If breeders realise that no longer can they rely on judges to give unhealthy dogs a pass, that the dog may win the class but fail the vet check, they'll start breeding dogs that are BOTH healthy and fit the breed standard.

Update as of today:

Bulldog - BOB not awarded (judge put up CH MELLOWMOOD ONE IN A MILLION)
Neopolitan Mastiff - BOB not awarded (judge put up CH ITHANI)
Mastiff - BOB not awarded (judge put up CH SECRET CHARM AVEC DIBEST)
Clumber Spaniel - BOB not awarded (judge put up CH CHERVOOD SNOWSUN)
Pekinese - BOB not awarded (judge put up PALACEGARDEN BIANCA)
 
#21 ·
i don't really know much about the evolution of the poodle's structural shift w/ interpretation of breed standard, as i'm fairly new to this breed ... but i have seen the shift in the german shepherd dog even in the last 15 years (and omg it was not great then)

even then we had issues w/ extreme conformation and working shepherds. they looked different. the working dog's back wasn't so sloped. they weren't so "rickety"... my breeder was importing working dogs to try to keep to the standard and not go extreme.

however, w/ dog shows the look for the more sloping back has left this once noble breed suffering from spinal and hip problems.

seelie and i are in obedience classes. there is a gsd in there who is a month younger than him (she's 10 mos to his 11) and she is so sweet and just a lovely dog ... but her backside movement? already she is wobbly on the back legs ... she can't do that wonderful pace that my gsd i had used to do.

and more often police and military are turning to malinois for working dogs as the gsd has been so crippled.

so yay. let's reel it in and not go so extreme.
 
#22 ·
I am so happy to hear about this. I don't see why a vet needs to know a breed standard to know a healthy dog. If that were the case I'd have to find a "Poodle vet" for Lumi! : P I think this is an excellent start to putting health and soundness back into the foreground of breeding practices!

As far as the idea that breeders should be able to regulate this themselves, well, obviously all are not all doing that! Even the government, the system in charge of *our* lives, operates under a series of checks and balances. Makes perfect sense to me that the show world should, too. : )

Here's to a healthier future for all purebreds!! : )
 
#23 ·
The latest BOB winner to fail the vet check is the Bassett, Ch Buzz Lightyear At Dereheath.

That is now 6 out of the 15 at-risk breeds subject to vet checks that have failed to demonstrate the dog is healthy.

The designated 15 are Basset Hound, Bloodhound, Bulldog, Chow Chow, Clumber Spaniel, Dogue De Bordeaux, German Shepherd Dog, Mastiff, Neapolitan Mastiff, Pekingese, Shar Pei, St Bernard, French Bulldog, Pug and Chinese Crested.
 
#28 ·
I don't have much direct experience with eye issues, but the more I read about ectropion/entropion, the more horrified I am.

The dog's certificate is dated 2006; is it not possible that she went from okay eyes at that point to the ectropion the Crufts vet saw? Just from looking at photos, her eyes look to have what I'm learning is the characteristic v-shape of ectropion.

I was pretty appalled to read on the site of the Clumber Spaniel Club of America that "Clumber eyelids are often "v" or diamond shaped, in accordance with the breed standard of conformation. Entropion may occur, but minor deviations of the lids may require only monitoring until full head maturation is reached (about two to three years of age). Ectropion is also sometimes seen, but care must be taken not to confuse the normal, diamond shape of the lower lid with ectropion. A properly shaped Clumber lid will often be looser than other breeds. Haw often shows. The proper lid, while loose, should not roll in or out, but drooping in and of itself is not unusual. Clumbers are supposed to have a lot of loose skin on their heads and faces."

Veterinary information sites all seem to agree that the v-shape or diamond eye is a clear-cut case of ectropion.

The Crufts requirement is not that the dog be relatively healthy for her breed, but rather that she be a healthy DOG.

I would think this can only be a good thing. I know the breeders of the dogs that were dq'ed are sure to be heartbroken, but the breeders who have been breeding less-extreme, healthier dogs must be rejoicing!
 
#29 ·
you're incorrect JE-UK the test was performed yesterday March 12th, her BIRTHDATE is 2006...

Why would anyone rejoice at the chance for their breed being stolen from the? You're definitely mistaken watch the video...even the best puppy owner said that she can't believe that they're doing this crap...I can't wait to see the entries next year, I feel like this was Crufts way of tightening its own noose and it won't be worth anything next year... :]
 
#31 ·
Very sorry, I misread it.

How is the breed being stolen? The KC is saying that breeding for extremes harms dog, and now they are enforcing this upon breeders and judges that can't/won't change. No one is saying that breeders need to breed out traits that define their breeds, just that those things that have been taken to such an extreme that the dog is no longer healthy will no longer be allowed to win at shows.

Anything that helps dogs live longer, healthier lives is welcome, IMO.

And again, if breeders and clubs can't police themselves, then I don't see that the KC has a choice. Purposefully breeding for a trait that means a dog is in constant pain, can't give birth naturally, can't breathe properly ... these are the crimes, not the KC's actions.
 
#30 ·
I suspect that what we are seeing is the difference between a vet that sees a malformed eye, which by its nature is causing conjunctivitis, and a vet that is seeing an eye which is normal for the breed. What is surely at issue is that the breed standards have led to ever more extreme malformations, until they have become completely accepted by breeders, and by judges. Vets, in the UK at least, have been arguing for change for decades - why would anyone deliberately breed diamond eye into a dog breed unless it was rewarded in the show ring? The same for any other disfunctional trait. It is quite possible that the breed clubs will choose to distance themselves from the Kennel Club, and set up their own shows, etc, but if they do so they will be taking a stance that is opposing public opinion in the UK. The vast majority of people - including many in the breeding and showing community - want less extreme standards and healthier dogs. NOT the end of breeding pedigree dogs, not the end of specific breeds, but attention paid to health, function and longevity over arbitrary breed standards, by judges as well as breeders.

The Clumber breeder who said that if the winning dog failed the test, then none of the dogs in the class could have passed, summed it up for me - the trait is now so pervasive in the breed it is considered normal. And it is time to reverse that.

We had similar "end of the world as we know it" claims a few years ago when docking was banned - a debate still going on in the States. And yet, just a few years on, everyone seems to have grown accustomed to dogs with full tails, and it is the docked ones that look peculiar. Three or four generations and we could be looking at dogs that are healthier and far closer to their original type. There is an old saying - "What you measure is what you get, and what you reward is what you get repeatedly" - this is an exercise in changing what is measured, and what is rewarded. If anyone wants to go on breeding for extreme features, there is nothing to stop them - but they will not be winning top prizes in British dog shows.
 
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