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Old 11-26-2012, 04:02 PM   #21 (permalink)
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This is probably naiive, but are not poodle judges poodle breeders and often poodle handlers or ex-handlers themselves, as well as very experienced kennel club members? Why on EARTH do they have these pervasive prejudices toward certain colours and even females????? I just do not understand it....if the dog has a great structure and a great gait, and is not faulted in colour, what the heck difference does apricot or red make in achieving a championship. Now THAT is something that I would like to see change in the show world.
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Old 11-26-2012, 05:52 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Indiana,

Will see if I can't clarify for you. Sometimes, often, what is written gets lost in translation.

To address the questions/frustrations addressed in your post....


Many Poodle Judges are Poodle Breeders - their predjudice is not because of color. The predjudice is because there is a LACK OF QUALITY in the color. There is no real way to explain this in text or illustrate this without picking on one dog over another. Take is as fact - Red, and Apricots as well, lack quality. Proportions are still off (from the initial breeding to create red of the small standard to the large mini) and breeding red to red does not improve conformation.

Red's do not have great structure.

Red's do not have great gates/movement.

They, across the board, have poor head carriage and no tail carriage. They are long bodied and short legged - which means they do not move well AND they lack type.

Coat color - while glorious - is not the be all end all that most color breeders think it is. So, when they are compaired to their black and white cousins, they are found lacking.



TheStars recommended a male for several reasons.

Just a few are :

- there are fewer dogs showing than bitches. For instance, it takes 12 bitches to make a Major and only 7 dogs. Purely, by-the-numbers, it is easier to finish a dog than a bitch.

- most breeders are not going to part with their pick bitch, even on a co-own. A pick dog on the other hand is much more likely to go out on a co-own.



The suggestion to get a show pup from an established breeder - was because - not always!! - but more often than from a breeder who does not have titled breeding animals - the pup is going to have better structure AND too, because a breeder who is actively titling has generally a much better eye - as they are in competition and constantly comparing and evaluating.

Also, because they (a breeder involved in conformation or field work) have experience with training and presenting as well as knowledge from being constantly involved in the breed. And, in conformation, like in ANY competition, experience helps! Someone to guide you is invaluable.


Hopefully, my explanations give you more insight and a little better understanding.

From reading the posts I can understand why there were misconceptions.


Regards,


Tabatha
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Old 11-26-2012, 07:40 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Thanks Tabatha for the clarification. I try to keep it short since I use my iphone. It's not the best tool for lengthy explanations, I prefer talking on the phone.

I have finished my red mini dog and I have my red toy bitch singled out. I'll finish her this coming year. We have had many reserve to majors, 3, 4 and 5 point majors, so I see no issues with finishing her. I am also currently showing my first bred-by bitch from my Red standard, Bindi. Kelsa is a black from a red to black breeding and will be taken back to red dogs. Her brother, Phoenix, a truly beautiful apricot and pick of the litter by several owner handlers and pro handlers will be taken out to the show ring later when we grow coat back out. I hope to have a red mini bitch and red bred-by standard to take out next year. The support from my mentors has encouraged me greatly to continue in my goal of showing and finishing reds of all sizes. Funny thing is that now I am recognized, the judges call me, "the Red Lady." I get joked about my "token" black but she is for my husband who wanted a black girl. Bless you and thank you to my mentors, you know who you are.

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Old 11-26-2012, 08:11 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiana View Post
This is probably naiive, but are not poodle judges poodle breeders and often poodle handlers or ex-handlers themselves, as well as very experienced kennel club members? Why on EARTH do they have these pervasive prejudices toward certain colours and even females????? I just do not understand it....if the dog has a great structure and a great gait, and is not faulted in colour, what the heck difference does apricot or red make in achieving a championship. Now THAT is something that I would like to see change in the show world.
Some of the judges have been poodle breeders others have bred other breeds. Prejudice is sometimes ruled by money. There are judges who will only look at one color no matter what and then there are others where color does not matter. I know that has been the case with the dogs I have presented to judges. It will take time and change in the Poodle world to change opinions and to improve the colors. Breeding red to red will preserve the recessive color so we need breeders to continue in their endeavor. However, we need other breeders that will also take risks and out cross to improve the quality. It will take several generations and hard work from many red breeders to bring the quality of this color up. Personally I believe we can not just give up on the color for the desire to win in the conformation ring. I applaud those breeders who'll invest their time and money in putting titles on both ends, it is alot of hard work!!!
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Old 11-27-2012, 05:13 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Congratulations, TheStars!


Shame on me for not thinking of AKC CH/UKC CH Patriot's Mickadoodle Dandy O'Wildwood - Buoy! Who was owner handled and finished!

I was, in my previous post, tunnel visioned on standards!



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Old 11-27-2012, 06:00 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Thank you all for your explanations; very educational
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:34 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Ash's Mystical currently has 2 beautiful red girls if you are still checking...I have a great mini poodle from her...very stable, smart, healthy guy. Recommending this breeder
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Old 12-14-2012, 05:47 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiana View Post
This is probably naiive, but are not poodle judges poodle breeders and often poodle handlers or ex-handlers themselves, as well as very experienced kennel club members? Why on EARTH do they have these pervasive prejudices toward certain colours and even females????? I just do not understand it....if the dog has a great structure and a great gait, and is not faulted in colour, what the heck difference does apricot or red make in achieving a championship. Now THAT is something that I would like to see change in the show world.
Me too !!!!!!!!!!! Very good point....Lets Cut down some of the "Show dogs " and see what we got ....The coat hides alot I too want to see color less biased.. There truly are some really nice reds out there.. And they are over looked because of color.. It does not help that there are "Red Breeders" out there putting down the color .. Geesh the judges are on these forums too..... Why not talk it up ? Perhaps they will listen ?
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Old 12-14-2012, 05:54 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiana View Post
This is probably naiive, but are not poodle judges poodle breeders and often poodle handlers or ex-handlers themselves, as well as very experienced kennel club members? Why on EARTH do they have these pervasive prejudices toward certain colours and even females????? I just do not understand it....if the dog has a great structure and a great gait, and is not faulted in colour, what the heck difference does apricot or red make in achieving a championship. Now THAT is something that I would like to see change in the show world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thestars View Post
Thanks Tabatha for the clarification. I try to keep it short since I use my iphone. It's not the best tool for lengthy explanations, I prefer talking on the phone.

I have finished my red mini dog and I have my red toy bitch singled out. I'll finish her this coming year. We have had many reserve to majors, 3, 4 and 5 point majors, so I see no issues with finishing her. I am also currently showing my first bred-by bitch from my Red standard, Bindi. Kelsa is a black from a red to black breeding and will be taken back to red dogs. Her brother, Phoenix, a truly beautiful apricot and pick of the litter by several owner handlers and pro handlers will be taken out to the show ring later when we grow coat back out. I hope to have a red mini bitch and red bred-by standard to take out next year. The support from my mentors has encouraged me greatly to continue in my goal of showing and finishing reds of all sizes. Funny thing is that now I am recognized, the judges call me, "the Red Lady." I get joked about my "token" black but she is for my husband who wanted a black girl. Bless you and thank you to my mentors, you know who you are.
I agree being a "Red' breeder myself i am focused on improving the red in general starting with health testing and focusing on the ring ..Phoenix will go out this year 2013 and I am excited for his future.. Hoping for another nice girl to go out .. WE will change everyones mind about red, that is my quest LOL
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Old 12-17-2012, 03:07 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Are you willing to import from Europe? We got our girl Journey, who is magnificent, from Very Merry Poodles in the Czech Republic. You would be surprised how the money converts into US dollars. And their kennel clubs will NOT let them breed without specific tests being done and being passed.

We have a boy in Berlin, Arreaui's Morning Has Broken, who is a German Youth Champion, Federal Winner 2011 and will be a Red Cross Search and Rescue dog who has recently passed all of his testing and is being bred to select bitches over there.
yea, i would import. i'm finding it hard to get a red breeder to help me in fact i'm feeling pretty sad right about now.
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