NOLA Standards

Am new to the forum, and must admit, I check in regularly. Because, reference this thread - there is DRAMA to be had.

Someone losing a family member - which I consider a pet to be -is the worst thing.

I believe in responsible breeding practices - and WHEN I breed, I will do my best to support my buyers for life - as I believe most breeders do.
(hashed and re hashed and hashed again - Hallelujah)

HOWEVER, here are my thoughts since this seems to be the place to share them with all.

I own a business - 100s of customers - 10+ years in business. MOST of my customers I have had for the life of my business - excellent retention = excellent customer service. But on occasion, I get someone who will NOT be made happy.

Doesn't make me a bad business person.

There are people here, good breeders - who I have heard things about (at SHOWS people and by being as involved as I have been with the fancy) In fact, pick a name that is well known and odds are good there is smut to be had. SOMEWHERE along the way there has been at least ONE person who doesn't think they were treated properly by X.

POINT: Do everything right and you still don't get it all right

Next item

I don't understand crying to other breeders. I do understand crying. And I understand action. So if I lost an animal, (no disrespect here to Arreau) I would not go to another breeder so they could ask an opinion on a forum - or watch Judge Judy for me...

I'm going to go to the breeder. If they don't return the phone call - I'm really going to GO to the breeder. Let's use Pinky as an example. Young girl - used the media!! Yes she came to the forum - HERSELF - for advice and some really good advice was given.

(BTW did we actually DO ANYTHING other than type 76 pages of our most esteemed opinions?? I SHOULD HAVE and MENT to - and we know what that equals - HOT AIR - just curious if I'm the only one)

Point here: I think it is sensational. Another discourse on responsible breeding by the same people who have already posted about responsible breeding - tune in tomorrow - it does seem like the "sides" are fighting and the message was posted to create some uproar. PM me! NOT!!!! that was sarcasm.

Now I haven't PM'd anyone and don't know who the breeder is/was. Neither do I know who the person was who lost the pet.

But I DO know, if it had been me, there wouldn't be a group of people chatting about me not being in touch with the breeder and crying to another. There might though, be a group of people talking about the clip they saw on CNN about the woman who bought the pet and the breeder wouldn't call her back and she... is there a boxing smiley face??

There you all go.

Not worth much at all, really.

Just wanted to come out of the Audience (al la Jerry Springer) and jump into the Fight!!! YEA!

plumcrazy

NOLA, it is true that every individual person handles things differently than the other... not everyone will handle things as you would - and you would not handle things the same as everyone else... it's life.

back on topic please.

Thank you!

__________________

There is no rule requiring that you attend every argument to which you're invited...

Beach girl

With all the discussion back and forth, I haven't seen much about what anyone thinks the breeder should be doing for this client monetarily. Refund all? Refund half?

In my totally non-expert opinion, and based on nothing but gut feelings, I'd think half a refund is more than fair. And even that should be ONLY if the vet can PROVE it was an autoimmune disorder. Was there an autopsy or blood test, or was auto-immune just the vet's guess? If I were a breeder, I would not be refunding money based only on a "guess," especially after the dog is over one year old.

The breeder has no way of knowing what the buyer has been feeding the dog and how the buyer has been maintaining the dog's environment. The breeder can't possibly know if the dog maybe ate something bad, licked up anti-freeze someplace, swallowed a piece of panty-hose, ate bird poop and got sick, got scratched by another animal with an illness, etc., etc. Bizarre things happen to dogs and absent actual proof, I'd be reluctant to say the breeder should immediately refund money only based on the vet's guess.

Also, if the breeder doesn't take phone calls, perhaps there's a reason - hard of hearing, doesn't want to be innundated with phone calls, etc. Did the buyer send an actual letter, to follow up the e-mail? E-mails, as we have already noted, are not fool-proof. I have found the occasional note from a friend in my spam filter from time to time. Not everyone checks their spam to discover if there might be actual mail there. The buyer has some responsibility to be SURE that the breeder received the communication.

It's not my intent to defend an uncaring breeder, if that's what the situation is; just saying the buyer has some responsibility also, to verify the facts and to communicate with the breeder in a more certain way.

Another question: what do you all mean exactly by "bad reaction" to a vaccination? Casey got sick, with some vomiting and diarrhea, after a vaccination. Is that a "bad reaction" that I should have told the breeder about, or is that within range of "normal?" I didn't even think of e-mailing the breeder about it; maybe I should have.

KalaMama

Winnow, I think you have exactly the right idea about guarantees. I enjoyed your post. I wonder if we have that type of insurance here in the U.S.? I know some have pet insurance but I haven't seen breeders who offer it. very interesting!

whitepoodles

[QUOTE=Beach girl;117734]With all the discussion back and forth, I haven't seen much about what anyone thinks the breeder should be doing for this client monetarily. Refund all? Refund half?

Beachgirl;

The reason is because the breeder does not respond or contacts the client inspite of being advised of what happened to the dog.

HARD of hearing ??

DOESNT want to be innundated with phone calls ??... doesnt this breeder expect/wants alot of e-mails and/or phone calls from prospective clients wishing to buy her/his pups, now and in future ??

If so, and I have no doubt it is the case, then she/he should expect to reply to e-mails when there is a sad tale of loss as much as she/he looks to reply to e-mails from prospective clients wishing to contact her for a puppy.... Just wondering why would a difference be made here??

ArreauStandardPoodle

First, please let me say, this woman called me for a puppy to fill the hole left by the loss of her other puppy. Just as girlfriends commiserate with their girlfriends about their kids, or how ticked they are with their husband, not expecting their girlfriend to fix it, but rather just to have someone who will listen and share their disapppointment or heartache, this woman shared her story with me because she is grieiving. Understandably so!! Nobody EXPECTS to lose a dog at twenty months of age to illness. She did not ASK me to come on a forum to find a solution for her. But after speaking with her about her loss, I, as a breeder, was not exactly sure how a breeder SHOULD handle this. Because the pup reacted to its first shots, should it have been sold at all? Should it have been sold with a contract different to the regular contract this breeder issues with each sold pup? Should they reimburse the price of the puppy? Half the price because of the age? Replace the puppy from an unrelated litter? Believe it or not, I did not create this thread to create drama. As a breeder, what if this happened to me? What steps should I take to be fair to the buyer, retain my reputation, and have everyone walk away feeling sad but satisfied?

A lot of the threads on this forum go smoothly and without incident. The ones that get out of hand are usually the ones where people just come in because of who the OP is, and wish to try to make them look stupid, or guilty of trouble making, start an argument, or have a bone to pick wiith them. That is their preogative. But please, in this instance do not assume you know me, or know why I posted this thread. I am a sympathetic person whose heart was sick for someone calling me because they lost their 20 month old pup. I would like to help her. She didn't ask me to, but showed some real concern for how she is being treated and the hot/cold response she is getting from the breeder of the pup, lack of communication from said breeder, and lack of any sort of plan to be reimbursed at all for her loss.

My personal feeling is the breeder should replace the pup with an unrelated puppy or give the buyer at least half the original price of the puppy back to help them pay the vet bill and to help with the purchase another puppy. I do not know at this point if any kind of post mortem work was done on the dog or if the vet made his diagnosis based on what the owner told him. I have referred this woman to another breeder, and she has put a deposit on a puppy, but I will try to get more details from her.

whitepoodles

Quote:

Originally Posted by KalaMama Winnow, I think you have exactly the right idea about guarantees. I enjoyed your post. I wonder if we have that type of insurance here in the U.S.? I know some have pet insurance but I haven't seen breeders who offer it. very interesting!

Kalamama:

Some breeders do give a health guarantee of 1-2-3-5- years. I know I give a 5 years written health guarantee on genetic mishaps and a lifetime guarantee on temperament, providing that my clients fulfill and adhere to all stipulations of the do's and dont's of my addendum instruction list to my sales contract... which is 12 typed pages listing do's and dont's from A-Z.

There are clients who buy insurance for their pets once the breeder sells the puppy to them.

I am not aware of any breeder who purchases a health insurance for the puppy they sell and it is interesting that it is done in Europe , which is a good thing,

Winnow:

How much does it cost you to purchase this type of insurance and offer it to all your puppy clients? Finland I believe is in Krons? not Euro, right ?

Penjilum-Poodles

This is true. I believe the breeder should only refund if it was proven that the dog did in fact have a hereditary illness. Not on a Vet's presumption. But we don't know the full details of this owner's story as well as the breeders. Did she have a necropsy preformed on her dog?
This is why it is important that there is a contract/guarantee in which it states that should the dog die that an necropsy be preformed to determine the cause of death. I as a breeder would want to know how and why a seemingly healthy young puppy from my lines has died. As a breeder I would stand behind my puppies and work with my puppy buyers.

However, based on what we've been told, it concerns me that the breeder has not responded to the owner's calls or emails as of yet...
There is always the unknown that could arise but an ethical breeder would be there to work with their puppy buyers in all situations.

I am deeply sorry for their loss, it is very difficult to loose a loved one, but i am glad that you pointed her in the right direction Arreau and that they will soon be getting a little bundle of joy to fill their hearts again.

PaddleAddict

A "normal" reaction after vaccines would be some soreness at the injection site, a slightly elevated temperature or lethargy.

Vomiting and diarrhea after a vaccine is definitely not a normal reaction. I would tell your breeder about it. Since your dog had a reaction to vaccines, what sort of protocol does your vet want to follow in the future? Subsequent vaccinations after a bad reaction can cause and even more heightened response. Some vets choose to pretreat with antihistamines before vaccines, others recommend avoiding vaccines entirely.

Beach girl

This particular breeder and buyer aside, what would you consider "working with" the buyer?

Let's say a buyer has lost a 2 year old dog, had the necropsy done, and it comes back that yes, indeed, the dog died from a genetically-aquired ailment. Let's say further that the breeder has been conscientious, has done all necessary required and recommended health tests, has a reasonably low COI for her litters, does all the right things as far as she has been aware. The adverse reaction to the vaccine was the only possible warning sign, and perhaps even that was within range of "normal reaction. " (I honestly don't know exactly what an "adverse reaction" is, and am now hoping that my own dog's reaction to a vaccine isn't a sign of bad things to come.)

What would be fair? Full refund? Half refund? New puppy from unrelated litter? Who should pay shipping, the buyer or the breeder, if shipping is involved?

Would it make a difference if it happened at age six months, say, versus 2 years? Or five years?

Have the breeders here ever had to refund money, in part or in full, or offer a new puppy, under similar circumstances? If so, was the buyer satisfied?

Just curious about how one would approach it, from a business point of view.

Paddle Addict, I didn't see your post before I wrote the above. Thanks for the info.

My vet didn't mention anything about any particular protocol for further shots. That was his final vaccine of the puppy series; the rabies shot is good for 3 years so he is not due again for anything until more than a year from now. I will definitely bring it up with the vet before Casey
gets his next shot.