Breeding blue to brown - Poodle Forum - Standard Poodle, Toy Poodle, Miniature Poodle Forum ALL Poodle owners too!
   

Go Back   Poodle Forum - Standard Poodle, Toy Poodle, Miniature Poodle Forum ALL Poodle owners too! > Poodle Forums > Poodle Talk > Poodle Breeding

Poodle Breeding Poodle Breeding and Breeder discussion

PoodleForum.com is the premier Poodle Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-09-2010, 04:50 PM   #1 (permalink)
Member
Points: 2,307, Level: 31 Points: 2,307, Level: 31 Points: 2,307, Level: 31
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 61
Thanks: 0
Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts
Default Breeding blue to brown

I read elsewhere on this forum that the blue colour is caused by a mix of black, brown, white and silver in the lineage. So what would arise from breeding a blue to a brown?

Also, what could arise from breeding a white to a black, where both of them carry genes for both brown and white? As I understand it the only risk of a white pup with brown points is breeding white to brown directly. But in a litter where one could potentially have black, brown and white puppies alongside each other would there be any risk of a white with brown points?

Thanks all
Jeremy is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 03-09-2010, 06:36 PM   #2 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 6,988, Level: 58 Points: 6,988, Level: 58 Points: 6,988, Level: 58
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
*tina*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Names of dogs: Captain, Midge(shar-pei/shepherd mix)
Poodle Type: miniature
Location: Honolulu, HI
Posts: 681
Thanks: 1
Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts
Default

If you breed a blue to brown, from what very little I understand, you will get fading browns, because of the dilute gene in the blue.
*tina* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2010, 06:52 PM   #3 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 2,766, Level: 34 Points: 2,766, Level: 34 Points: 2,766, Level: 34
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Names of dogs: Gabby, Tulsa, Egypt
Poodle Type: Standard
Location: Northern Indiana
Posts: 109
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

I agree with Tina.
Tess is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2010, 02:47 PM   #4 (permalink)
Member
Points: 2,307, Level: 31 Points: 2,307, Level: 31 Points: 2,307, Level: 31
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 61
Thanks: 0
Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts
Default

Right I see, thanks for the reply.

What about breeding a white and black with the possibility of them producing browns ?
Jeremy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2010, 02:54 PM   #5 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 6,988, Level: 58 Points: 6,988, Level: 58 Points: 6,988, Level: 58
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
*tina*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Names of dogs: Captain, Midge(shar-pei/shepherd mix)
Poodle Type: miniature
Location: Honolulu, HI
Posts: 681
Thanks: 1
Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts
Default

I know that my dog is from a litter with two blues, a black and a brown, the brown was a dark brown and is now fading to a more cafe au lait color. That breeding was a blue (dam) and black (sire). My breeder is going for blues and blacks. I don't know that a white poodle can produce browns. Cbrand I believe breeds browns and knows brown breeders.
*tina* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2010, 03:43 PM   #6 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 40,761, Level: 100 Points: 40,761, Level: 100 Points: 40,761, Level: 100
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
cbrand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Poodle Type: Standards
Location: Boulder, Colorado
Posts: 2,686
Thanks: 0
Thanked 50 Times in 43 Posts
Default

Dogs in the Black spectrum: Black, Blue, Silver
Dogs in the Brown spectrum: Brown, Cafe, Silver Beige

Getting certain colors in dogs in not like mixing paint. Blue (and not just grizzled/faded Black) comes from a fading or silvering allele laid over Black. A stronger dose of this allele will produce more lightening of the color and thus Silver.

So a Blue, assuming the Blue carried a Brown gene, bred to a Brown would most likely produce Cafes. I know that the Alegria folks bred their Black bitch Monet to their fabulous Silver Beige and have gotten some wonderful Cafes.

Historically there was this idea in Browns and Blacks that only the darkest colors were desirable. There was a time where Blue dogs were dyed Black for the show ring. However, I think we have seen in the last few years that Blues and Silvers can be very competitive and that Cafes and Silver Beiges can be very, very pretty colors.
cbrand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2010, 05:50 PM   #7 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 40,761, Level: 100 Points: 40,761, Level: 100 Points: 40,761, Level: 100
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
cbrand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Poodle Type: Standards
Location: Boulder, Colorado
Posts: 2,686
Thanks: 0
Thanked 50 Times in 43 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy View Post
Right I see, thanks for the reply.

What about breeding a white and black with the possibility of them producing browns ?
Brown is a recessive color. You get Brown by either breeding Brown to Brown or two dogs of another color who happen to carry a recessive Brown gene.

You could get Brown from a Cream/Black breeding if both dogs carried a recessive Brown gene. However I think the Cream would have to be one of those Creams with a liver colored nose. This combination is a disqualifying color in Poodles and considered to be highly undesirable so a good Poodle breeder would not move forward with this sort of Poodle as a breeding dog.
cbrand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2010, 01:34 PM   #8 (permalink)
Member
Points: 2,307, Level: 31 Points: 2,307, Level: 31 Points: 2,307, Level: 31
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 61
Thanks: 0
Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts
Default

Thanks for the explanation, guys. I do know that mixing colors in Poodle breeding is not like mixing colours in a paint palet. I didn't know, though, that blue was caused by having a mix of black/brown/white in the line, hence my question regarding blue - brown mating.

Would there be any risk of having a blue with liver points from such a mating?

As for my second question...if you take a black and an ice-white (not cream), both of whom carry brown genes, then presumably one could get brown puppies. However, would there also be a risk of poorly pigmented whites? Or would the brown gene not intefere with the white pup's pigmentation?
Jeremy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2010, 02:06 PM   #9 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 40,761, Level: 100 Points: 40,761, Level: 100 Points: 40,761, Level: 100
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
cbrand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Poodle Type: Standards
Location: Boulder, Colorado
Posts: 2,686
Thanks: 0
Thanked 50 Times in 43 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy View Post
Thanks for the explanation, guys. I do know that mixing colors in Poodle breeding is not like mixing colours in a paint palet. I didn't know, though, that blue was caused by having a mix of black/brown/white in the line.
Sorry. I think we are crossing lines. Blue does NOT come from a mix of Black/Brown/White. It comes from a silvering or fading allele. This fading allele is obviously present in Blues and Silvers and Cafes and Silver Beiges, but it also seems to be present in Creams and Apricots. I have heard that years back people looking to improve and widen the Silver breeding pool actually bred to Apricots.


Quote:
Would there be any risk of having a blue with liver points from such a mating?
It is impossible to have a Blue with liver points since a Blue dog is in the Black spectrum and Blacks/Blues/Silvers ALWAYS have black pigment.

Quote:
As for my second question...if you take a black and an ice-white (not cream), both of whom carry brown genes, then presumably one could get brown puppies. However, would there also be a risk of poorly pigmented whites? Or would the brown gene not intefere with the white pup's pigmentation?
Yes it is possible to get Brown puppies from a White/Black breeding.

I will say have never seen an ice White Poodle (this is Poodle born with no hint of cream on the ears) with black pigment who carried Brown. I guess that it is genetically possible but it is exactly the kind of thing good Poodle breeders look to avoid. Look at this color chart:

http://www.vetgen.com/chromagene-coat-color2.html

To get Brown, your ice White would need to be genetically Bbee bred to BbEE, BbEe, bbEE or bbEe. The Brown gene does indeed affect pigment because you run the risk of getting bbee dogs = Cream/White dogs with liver pigment.

Edited to ask.... who are you Jeremy? Could you tell us something about yourself? What is your interest in breeding?
cbrand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2010, 02:24 PM   #10 (permalink)
Member
Points: 2,307, Level: 31 Points: 2,307, Level: 31 Points: 2,307, Level: 31
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 61
Thanks: 0
Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts
Default

Ah yes - I got completely mixed up those two ideas: Blue being a dilution of Black and being resultant of a Black/Brown/White mix.

I've heard a number of apricot breeders say that breeding to a blue is the best outcross possible for apricot, since the blue usually brings in better type from black/white lines and the cover doesn't get totally covered up in the first generation (as with black), you don't have the risk of mismarks as with breeding to white, and you don't have the risk of liver points as with brown. Supposedly breeding to blue also improved the colour although I'm not too sure on that one.

Thanks for clarifying that bit about the risk of whites/creams with liver pigments. I agree its not ideal but it can happen when you mix white and black lines, where the black lines carry brown, and then you linebreed, potentially producing pups in all three colours.

I am me Lover and breeder of Poodles.
Jeremy is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Red or brown std Noriko Poodle Breeder Directory 1 12-15-2009 02:25 PM
Non-fading brown Dogsinstyle Poodle Pictures 13 11-17-2009 09:26 AM
red dog liver nose? brown dog brown nose? akbirdy Poodle Talk 6 10-25-2009 12:05 PM
Brown DAM and RED SIRE Das Poodle Talk 8 10-02-2009 02:32 AM
Brown Poodles Fluffyspoos Poodle Talk 24 08-26-2009 12:17 PM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 12:47 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2
All (C) PoodleForum.com
PetGuide.com
Basset.net DobermanTalk.com GoldenRetrieverForum.com OurBeagleWorld.com
BoxerForums.com DogForums.com GoPitbull.com PoodleForum.com
BulldogBreeds.com FishForums.com HavaneseForum.com SpoiledMaltese.com
CatForum.com GermanShepherds.com Labradoodle-dogs.net YorkieForum.com
Chihuahua-People.com RetrieverBreeds.com