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Old 11-21-2012, 02:28 PM   #71 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharismaticMillie View Post
It's just a big mess between the two breeders, Ouwest. I think its best to stay out of it all. There is so much more than meets the eye. Frankly, I'm disappointed it has been brought to this forum.
Dear CharismaticMillie;

I brought this information to this forum and this is certainly not about any mess between two breeders. This is about putting paint/dye on puppies pigment when they are a few days old.

I have been breeding standard poodles for 20 years. My parents bred standard poodles before me so I grew up with standard poodle puppies. In all that time I had never learned or heard about any breeders painting/dyeing pigment on puppies a few days old.

My post was meant to show pet people or novice show people, with evidence, how a greedy breeder is colouring small PUPPIES with paint/dye. There were no identifying marks on the pictures and I did not publicly identify the greeder. Maybe I was naive to think reputable breeders would be shocked by this?

How can you justify a person painting/dyeing puppy pigment?

Don't you believe painting/dyeing puppies a few days old would harm the pups nervous and immune systems?

Is this or is this not animal abuse?
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Old 11-21-2012, 02:46 PM   #72 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharismaticMillie View Post
It's just a big mess between the two breeders, Ouwest. I think its best to stay out of it all. There is so much more than meets the eye. Frankly, I'm disappointed it has been brought to this forum.

And as to this:


Are you implying that show bred dogs have a greater capacity to produce any number of poodle diseases than non show bred?
When people breed for looks only, stuff happens. That is what happened to poodle health in the first place. When people breed for money only, stuff happens. There are good breeders of show dogs, obviously, but there are also those who don't care. People get an elegant dog that starts breaking down around 5-7 years old. There are also good breeders who do not show AKC/CKC because of the stuff that goes on.

My last standard was from pure show lines and what a mess she was, oh, yes. I am more leery of pure show breeders than I am of others. I think people are more aware now then they were and that is good, but I steered clear on purpose, if you recall. I am feeling there is greater awareness now, though.

So, to answer your question: Yes, I would be careful about any dog I purchased from solid show lines, but I do believe there are healthy dogs from show lines. I would just do my homework.
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Old 11-22-2012, 05:58 AM   #73 (permalink)
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these picture have been posted several places. I went back and looked at photos of cream puppies born here. When I did close/blow ups..they all had the same look as this picture. None of mine had the mouth partly open, so couldn't tell how far back the color went.
as someone else mentioned "I don't have a dog in this fight" and neither do I. This is an offshoot of a dispute between stud and bitch owners.

This is not an educational thread.

The election is over..no more mud slinging :-)
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Old 11-22-2012, 08:05 AM   #74 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by tintlet View Post
This is not an educational thread.

The election is over..no more mud slinging :-)
I would agree, this thread started out as educational (for me anyways, it's given me the opportunity to learn more about pigmentation and how it develops.) but its gone beyond that now.

Let's face it, at least this breeder isn't being raided because she has 40 dogs in tiny crates and knee deep filth. I do think its a shame she is hiding some faults in her dogs. Everyone's line has faults, and every line (as far as I know!) has produced some dogs with health issues. There is no shame in admitting that.

Happy Turkey day!
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Old 11-23-2012, 08:56 AM   #75 (permalink)
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My Ormar baby has very black pigment. Ora, from my experience and opinion would NEVER do this to pups, nor did she do it to her stud - her handler did. That much is true.

But I've also met the stud at 6 years old and trust me he is healthy and still holding pigment.

To post these photos claiming this is ridiculous, however not suprising of the person who did and the other breeder suporting it - its classic poodle forum behavior of the two.

The situation between these breeders is ugly - one is much more intense (obsessed) and she is documenting herself daily! We shall see how that works out for her in the end.

Oh and if you send Ora questions demanding answers to the insane accusations and she acts like a bitch, she very well might have had good reason!
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Old 11-23-2012, 09:35 AM   #76 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Olie View Post
My Ormar baby has very black pigment. Ora, from my experience and opinion would NEVER do this to pups, nor did she do it to her stud - her handler did. That much is true.

But I've also met the stud at 6 years old and trust me he is healthy and still holding pigment.

To post these photos claiming this is ridiculous, however not suprising of the person who did and the other breeder suporting it - its classic poodle forum behavior of the two.

The situation between these breeders is ugly - one is much more intense (obsessed) and she is documenting herself daily! We shall see how that works out for her in the end.

Oh and if you send Ora questions demanding answers to the insane accusations and she acts like a bitch, she very well might have had good reason!
And your Ormar baby is absolutely STUNNING!!!
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Old 11-23-2012, 10:06 AM   #77 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by outwest View Post
When people breed for looks only, stuff happens. That is what happened to poodle health in the first place. When people breed for money only, stuff happens. There are good breeders of show dogs, obviously, but there are also those who don't care. People get an elegant dog that starts breaking down around 5-7 years old. There are also good breeders who do not show AKC/CKC because of the stuff that goes on.

My last standard was from pure show lines and what a mess she was, oh, yes. I am more leery of pure show breeders than I am of others. I think people are more aware now then they were and that is good, but I steered clear on purpose, if you recall. I am feeling there is greater awareness now, though.

So, to answer your question: Yes, I would be careful about any dog I purchased from solid show lines, but I do believe there are healthy dogs from show lines. I would just do my homework.
Your assumption that show breeders breed for looks only and produce more health issues than non show breeders...is a HUGE generalization....!

It's saddening to me that you are so jaded from a bad experience that you are generalizing it to all show breeders. Health issues happen - in show lines and in pet lines. Just because you had an experience with an unhealthy dog from show lines does not mean that show breeders represent a greater amount of health issues.

Health issues happen even when breeders (show, pet, and everything in between) do everything in their power to breed healthy, well rounded, structurally and temperamentally sound poodles. This is something we all have to accept.

Health issues also happen when breeders do not take advantage such of knowledge and tools that help breed healthy poodles. Irresponsible breeding happens just as much among non-show breeders as it does among show breeders. Showing does not imply that a breeder is any less likely to be taking health, temperament, the whole big picture into account. You have had a bad experience but your generalization is not fair. There are many, many show breeders who put temperament and health far before looks.

Last edited by CharismaticMillie; 11-23-2012 at 10:15 AM.
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Old 11-23-2012, 10:27 AM   #78 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayah-QualitySPs View Post

How can you justify a person painting/dyeing puppy pigment?

Don't you believe painting/dyeing puppies a few days old would harm the pups nervous and immune systems?

Is this or is this not animal abuse?
Question 1 - there is no justification in painting puppy pigment. Anyone doing this would need to be pretty creative in doing all pigment and NOT smearing it everywhere with active rolling pups, not to mentioning bodily fluids galore!

Question 2 - yes, and there is NO proof (here anyway )that this pup was painted.....just pissed off people (small group now) claiming this. I imagine this could make a dog very sick and with anything permanant (ink) it will fade and wear off and become purple....anyone doing this would need to be on top of it and certainly not allow people in their house for the sake of being caught.

Question 3 - As with the similar question of 2.....anything to harm a dog - YES, I think so!

I say you starting this thread is an obvious extention of your sour relationship with the breeder....this was not intended to educate LMAO!!

I also say if a breeder is hiding issues and continuing to breed knock yourself out with the facts/documentation because people have a right to know. This thread/claim is reaching....and not many with good sense are reaching with these allegations.
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Old 11-23-2012, 10:42 AM   #79 (permalink)
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Oh and if you send Ora questions demanding answers to the insane accusations and she acts like a bitch, she very well might have had good reason!
Excuse me, but I did not "demand" answers...I very politely gave her my personal observations about her puppies, said I had heard others claiming that the puppies were painted, and asked her to explain what was going on. I thanked her several times for her time, and even complimented her dogs because yes, they are gorgeous. I could understand her seeming a little irritated or bitchy, but she was downright ugly to me, a person she doesn't know and who has given her no trouble. I gave her absolutely no reason to be ugly the way she was.

I understand that you are feeling defensive of your breeder. I would too. But you don't know how I was towards Ora, and therefore to assume I was somehow demanding something from her just isn't right.
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Old 11-23-2012, 10:55 AM   #80 (permalink)
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I am not a photographic analyst, but i will chime in on one note. My recent cream/white litter, when still IN the sac, dark points were obvious around their eyes and lips. Their pink noses DID indeed blacken OVERNIGHT between day 2 and 3. I can't imagine this would be an uncommon occurrence. On the other hand, non-disclosure of serious genetic issues I would consider unethical. Although I don't have a dog in this fight between breeders, I understand the consuming vehemence that occurs when one feels betrayed, lied to, and ripped off. Unfortunately, in this internet age, gossip and accusation have far-reaching impact, and so escalates the emotion involved. Please, breeders, measure your words.. for who may be your friend today, could easily become your enemy overnight..scary. Fact is, some breeders will always have priorities that differ from your own.. when we tear each other down publicly, we do the breed no favors, and the satisfaction is temporary. I think it is sad for the innocent dogs involved. They certainly like the noses they are born with : )
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