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Old 11-20-2012, 05:59 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by cavon View Post
The same could be said about what goes on behind a lot of scenes, in a lot of situations.
Indeed it could.
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Old 11-20-2012, 06:56 PM   #52 (permalink)
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It seems patently unfair to me to accuse a breeder who does not have posting privileges on this forum, and therefore cannot respond, of being dishonest, painting her pups' points and implying she is in other ways somehow underhanded. That is an injustice and one I want to firmly state disgusts me. It also shines a bright light on those hurling the accusations. I find such conduct cowardly, low-brow and unworthy of an audience. Having had enough "education" on the topic, I'm leaving this thread now. My take-away lesson is all the turkeys won't be on dinner tables here on Thursday, some will still be out there scratching in the dirt and gobbling.
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:15 PM   #53 (permalink)
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I appreciate and respect your sense of fairness. But where there is smoke there is fire. I don't show or breed, but this breeder's reputation has even trickled down to me, from many sources.
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Old 11-20-2012, 08:37 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Chagall's mom View Post
It seems patently unfair to me to accuse a breeder who does not have posting privileges on this forum, and therefore cannot respond, of being dishonest, painting her pups' points and implying she is in other ways somehow underhanded. That is an injustice and one I want to firmly state disgusts me. It also shines a bright light on those hurling the accusations. I find such conduct cowardly, low-brow and unworthy of an audience. Having had enough "education" on the topic, I'm leaving this thread now. My take-away lesson is all the turkeys won't be on dinner tables here on Thursday, some will still be out there scratching in the dirt and gobbling.
Wow Chagall's Mom!

I had no idea you found education so distasteful. If I knew that exposure to this topic would bother you so close to your Turkey Day I would have waited to post the pictures. Please accept my apologies and I hope you are feeling better soon.

So sorry to make you think I was implying or hurling anything. I much prefer to blurt it right out. You know, like calling a spade a spade.

Feel free to challenge my argument and logic. That is what discussion is/should be all about.

I agree that the dishonesty of cruelly poisoning small innocent puppies for no known purpose is below cowardly, distasteful and underhanded. This behaviour is so low I do not even know if there is a name for it but I wish she would stop painting/dyeing her puppies. There is also pictures of the fathers nose being painted and I am clearly stating she lied about that. What is the purpose of the lie?

There should not be a need for this type of deception when breeding poodles - ever. How do you suggest we stop these practices?
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:13 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Well Chagall's mom, I tried to be fair. I went straight to the source, Ora herself. I asked her in as kind a way as possible what was going on and stated my reasons for asking. That I had seen her photos of the puppies at 2 days old and they had pig pink points, then 2 days later they had jet black points. I admitted I was a bit suspicious but that I hadn't really made a complete decision yet. Let me just say her reply was less than polite. It was downright scathing, demeaning, and somewhat vicious. Not to the people accusing her but to me. If you want proof, I can post her reply to me. Not only was her information incorrect, she was rude about it. In my book, that is not ok and I will not support her. So there ya go, I was fair. I gave her a chance to speak for herself, she failed.
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:55 PM   #56 (permalink)
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I am going to play devils advocate. I do not condone painting noses for any reason. I also don't like the hairspray or the toe nail chopping or the wiggles. ALL of it is ridiculous. These are dogs/pets. But, painting noses on show dogs is far from the worst thing I have seen/heard. I know of some I have a suspicion of cutting a tail tendon to make it straight. Many are shocked at that and yet we dock tails.

Products for show dogs to hide faults abound. Is painting a nose black any worse than those of you who might chalk their white dogs in the ring or dye their black dogs a blacker black or tie fake hair in to make them better looking? I don't think so. Heck, Chris Christenson dog show products, which so many of us like, has a whole line of products to cover flaws including "black button nose":
Pet Cosmetics for Pet Grooming, Show Dogs & Cats

To me, it is all unethical and AKC shows (and apparently CKC shows) both ignore (and thus accept) the use of these products. If someone is into dog shows in a very big way and has been sucked down the drain, they believe that winning is everything. I can see how they may do something like this and not think anything about it. After all- everyone does it, right? That doesn't make it right, but it makes it understandable.

I have been told not to put a collar on my large, strong boy and only to pet him a certain direction to save his hair. I was told not to teach him to sit. Really? A dog that won't sit when asked? We band and wrap and trim and bath. Coloring noses is wrong, but is it any worse than anything else people do to win? Misrepresenting a dog or puppy is done all the time in the show world. Problems are skirted and dogs with health problems are bred. To me, coloring a nose is far less offensive than breeding a dog with hip dysplasia or immune disorders or bloat close up in the line.

Puppies are born with the wrong points from the best of breeders. For a breeder to find it necessary to hide that is sad and only speaks to the whole problem of conformation dog shows, not to one person who colored a puppies nose.

I am not sure where the line can be drawn. Is it not teaching your dog to sit? Is it hairspray or wiggles? Is it dying? Is it a little chalk on the muzzle? Where on the spectrum of hiding flaws is 'black button nose'? If people point a finger at that person, they better not be able to point one at themselves.

Last edited by outwest; 11-20-2012 at 10:36 PM.
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Old 11-20-2012, 11:16 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Yes absolutely...in the reds. Whites are born with black pigment or they aren't. If they aren't, their pigment is likely not going to be good- period. Reds change from pig pink to black or brown in their first two weeks.
Interesting. I was of the impression that all white puppies are born with pink points, then darken and change as they mature. Can you or someone else elaborate and maybe post photos? I'm trying to find info on this, as I am curious and want to know the truth, however it isn't working very well there doesn't seem to be much written on it.
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Old 11-21-2012, 03:56 AM   #58 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chagall's mom View Post
It seems patently unfair to me to accuse a breeder who does not have posting privileges on this forum, and therefore cannot respond, of being dishonest, painting her pups' points and implying she is in other ways somehow underhanded. That is an injustice and one I want to firmly state disgusts me. It also shines a bright light on those hurling the accusations. I find such conduct cowardly, low-brow and unworthy of an audience. Having had enough "education" on the topic, I'm leaving this thread now. My take-away lesson is all the turkeys won't be on dinner tables here on Thursday, some will still be out there scratching in the dirt and gobbling.
And yet you leave such a ridiculously rude comment, turkeys pecking at dirt? Really?

This thread is absolutely crazy. If you don't like what someone has said, then just say so, you don't have to find a crazy elaborate way to insult the person/people.

If the best you can do to disarm a person is call them names (others, in earlier posts), or make up anecdotes about turkeys I think you need to seriously consider tweaking the finer points of your arguments.
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Old 11-21-2012, 04:29 AM   #59 (permalink)
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Well Chagall's mom, I tried to be fair. I went straight to the source, Ora herself. I asked her in as kind a way as possible what was going on and stated my reasons for asking. That I had seen her photos of the puppies at 2 days old and they had pig pink points, then 2 days later they had jet black points. I admitted I was a bit suspicious but that I hadn't really made a complete decision yet. Let me just say her reply was less than polite. It was downright scathing, demeaning, and somewhat vicious. Not to the people accusing her but to me. If you want proof, I can post her reply to me. Not only was her information incorrect, she was rude about it. In my book, that is not ok and I will not support her. So there ya go, I was fair. I gave her a chance to speak for herself, she failed.
Are you friends with Lucy Tyler on FB? She has a litter of eleven whites sired by Ora's male Cole. She has been posting photos of the litter since their first moments on earth. If you could get over and look at her photos it would be a good education. Her page is also- as it exposes the stud dog owner in a totally different light to how she attempts to present herself.
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Old 11-21-2012, 04:35 AM   #60 (permalink)
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I wonder then if more breeders should be exposed like this...by releasing the mass of emails saved by a smart lil "creep" to the general public since we're all so comfortable with it
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