outwest

I have some questions as I start to ponder breeding my girl in a couple years or spaying her. The breeder is supportive of allowing breeding to the right sire if her testing is good. If you don't feel like listening to my yammering, skip to the bottom for my questions please.
Thank you!

Darkening coat:
I was taken aback when my little odd colored cream standard began to darker instead of lighten to an off white. She is now a year old with no end in sight to the darkening. I mentioned before that every time she is trimmed she appears a little oranger, a little clearer. It was suggested that was because of sunfading on the outside of her hair, which is quite possible. But, honestly, I am not crazy. This girl is getting darker and oranger. Since I hadn't heard of a poodle getting darker, I thought I would try to research it some and came across this:

"Apricots are usually deep in color when whelped and lighten gradually until the age of two yrs., when they gradually deepen again. [not the case with mine]They usually end up the same color basically as the first layering and depending upon how coarse and how long the coat is, the jacket may be many times deeper. However, there are lines of apricots which progressively deepen throughout their lives. This type will be a dull orangish or a very deep tan, in color as young puppies. [This is what mine looked like] Both types must have the same color all over. At puppy that is light orange at six wks., with a white face and feet ( and has started to patch at the skin ) will mature into a white with orange guard hairs. If it is a bright or light apricot at that age, it will be a deep cream with orange guard hairs at maturity. If you cut this color down, it appears cream, [mine looks quite orange when cut down] but when in long show coat it looks a good color. So the longer the hair the deeper the color."

When I got my puppy, she was an odd, off color, kind of a dullish deep gray/tan. Her tummy skin was bluish (don't know how else to describe it). No one had chosen her yet. My theory was because of the strange color. I didn't care because she was so full of personality. Here was her color as a newborn (she is the darker one straight down):



we called her our little paper bag:




She is no longer tan. She is light apricot. I can hardly call her cream, although she is registered cream. Sorry for the crummy picture, but I just took it tonight in a hurry. It is so hard to get an accurate picture of her color, but this is pretty close. To be honest, her ears seem to be getting reddish!? Usually the camera washes her out and she looks whitish (like in my signature) but she isn't:



Nose:
In addition to the changing color and darkening of her coat, in the last couple weeks her nose is not holding onto the pitch black that it was. It is turning a very dark hershey chocolate color (you can see it in the picture). It still looks pretty on her and is not the brown poodle color of nose. I hope it doesn't go pink! Yikes. Her eye rims remain black, her lips are black (no fading there) and her eyes are very dark (almost black, hard to see the pupils).

Her pedigree is 80% black. There is one brown in there several generations back as well as one cream and a full line of apricots (but they are three generations back). WAY back is one silver. Other than that, all black.

Here are my questions:

1) Nose questions:
Is the pigment they are born with the pigment they are considered to have? Did the one brown in her background cause the black to begin to go? Is it common for apricots to lose their black noses? Would a black nose that faded on a light apricot dog be considered a fault to the degree that she shouldn't be bred? Or, is that something which could be mediated by choosing the right sire for her?

2) I think her color is pretty because it shimmers and glows, like a sunset almost. Is there a way to encourage the color and ensure the black points stay strong? Like, by breeding to another apricot with black points that stayed black? Or, breeding to a black with some apricot background? Someone also said a silver, but wouldn't a silver be introducing a fading gene? I don't think she carries a fading gene since she has not faded and had nonfading parents.

These questions are premature, obviously.

Also, she is a UKC grand champion at 10 months of age and did it with very little effort, but was never shown in AKC partly because she is a small standard (about 22 inches) and partly because I wasn't prepared to do that when I bought her. I only decided to show her when she started getting prettier as she grew. I tried it for fun at 6 months old and she won. I thought she could be bred to a fullsized male (she isn't too small for that).

Why I am thinking of breeding her?
She has an interesting, diverse pedigree, lots of sparkly poodliness and has an awesome personality. Her conformation has plusses and minuses like them all. I either want to breed her and keep one of her puppies for my own or spay her and buy another puppy. There is no reason for me to deal with an unspayed dog if I am not planning on breeding her.

Thank you for your thoughts! I also thought it might be interesting to others when thinking about color breeding and keeping the points dark.

BorderKelpie

This is just my opinion and I could be waaaay off, but she is beautiful, has a great temperment and personality and you are planning on all the required/requested health testing.

I personally think she could be an asset to her breed on just her temperment alone, but add to that her spectacular coloring (IMO) and as you say, her poodliness (had to scroll up to sheck on spelling lol) - I'd say go for it!

I just wish I lived closer and had more room. I'd put a deposit down now for a pup out of her. A girl can only dream, you know.

ArreauStandardPoodle

I think, and have always thought that Bonnie is a stunning little girl! She most certainly is big enough to be bred to a full sized male. If I were to breed her, I would try to find a glorious apricot or red with coal black, holding pigment, or breed her to a black. She could be going through winter nose, which is pretty typical in apricots, creams, reds and some whites. Are her dishes glass or stainless? How do you store her food? It should never be stored in a plastic bin, and food and water should never be served in plastic dishes. This can lighten pigment. You can also ask your vet about adding vitamin D or kelp to her diet to help retain pigment if it is winter nose. Brown pigment is acceptable in apricots and reds, though not preferred. It seems to be a flaw that is easily remedied. Our Holly's nose faded terribly and the colour never came back. Her daughter's also faded, though not as much and a little later. Her grandchildren, the result of breeding to a male with coal black pigment and dark skin at seven years old, all have pitch black points that I am certain is not going to fade...all the result of one generation bred to a dog whose pigment was a consideration.

Our puppies darken a lot from birth...usually to about 15 months old. Then at two they begin to fade somewhat, everyone to varying degrees, some a lot, some hardly at all.

I think Bonnie could produce some stellar pups if bred to the right male. Good luck with everything!!

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outwest

Her food bowl is stainless steel, her water bowl is ceramic, but her food is stored in a plastic antproof container (we have ants here that find their way into everything that isn't protected). Do you think it would be better to store it in it's own bag?

I thought of winter nose, but I live where it is sunny most of the time. I feel her nose is not holding her blackness because it isn't, not because of a lack of sun. I could certainly add some vitamin D to her food and stop using the plastic food container, but my whippets food is in the same type of container and his nose is black. I have been throwing an Omega 3 capsule in her food for dinner, but I haven't seen any difference.

Mainly, I was wondering if her nose would be a killer in whether to breed her or not. Also, her smaller size means she wouldn't likely produce any huge dogs, but I think there are other people producing large standards for those who wish them. There are people interested in average sized ones.

I firmly believe no poodle should be bred if not an asset to the breed. I think she could be an asset even if she didn't prove herself in AKC. She is muscular and agile, she is smart and has a pretty face. Her ears have very little hair inside them and her eyes do not drip or goober up ever. She has a beautiful even bite, a good chin and robust health at this point (she has never had an ear infection or as much as one itchy spot on her). Her coolio coloring seems a bonus to me. A couple of the standard puppies being born to the breeder now I would practically die to have. I was thinking of getting a gorgeous black recently and lost out because I hestitated. grrrr. Then I was looking at a brown, but realized a brown was not right for my situation. Then I thought I could have one myself through Bonnie. The breeder retains co-ownership and is encouraging and supportive, so that is terrific. She would need a longer legged guy for more height.

It would be fun to try one in AKC after so many years of the line being away from it. I don't see why I couldn't do that with one of her puppies.

The wait to breed her would also be better because then my whippet would be older, too. Bringing another puppy into the house now when Bonnie is still young would be harder.

Thank you for listening to my thoughts. It is so nice to have this forum to talk about these things on. Everyone around me thinks I am a little bit crazy to think of breeding puppies. It has been a long time since I had puppies (over 20 years now). I don't see why I couldn't try to have one litter with her! There are no guarantees, I know from experience, but still it is exciting for me to think about.

ArreauStandardPoodle

The Whippet's nose will not change colour because they do not have the pigment issues. I would buy a galvanized steel garbage can with a lid to store the food.

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outwest

That's a good idea, Arreau. That should keep the ants out, too.

PoodlePowerBC

I like Bonnie's color! And we are looking for a smaller standard for our 2nd Spoo ... so there are "people" out there

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Walk with someone who will accompany you willingly, preferably a dog.

BorderKelpie

May I butt in with some thoughts that were shared with me years ago (that, in hindsight, I wish I followed)?

Do you really want a male pup to raise? Reason I ask, years ago when I was first stating out, I purchased a male and a female to breed eventually. By the time they were mature, tested, shown, etc - they both showed similar confirmation faults. If I bred them, I would not have been improving the breed, just making more of what I already had. Disappointing, to say the least.

The other thing I've learned. Keep your best bitch, breed her to the best dog you can find, then, keep her best daughter. There are always nice males around. You can breed to a spectacular male cheaper than you can raise, train and campaign one. With AI available now, you're not limited much at all anymore. The world has really opened up now. With a small number of really nice girls, you can make quite a name for yourself in breeding. Always leave options open for co-owning your pups as well.

Just some weird, random thoughts. Truely, I wish I had followed my own advise years ago, but, at least I am finally learning.

I wish you and Bonnie all the best in your new endeavor!!

outwest

Excellent points, borderkelpie.

I don't have any desire to be 'a breeder'. I could spay her, which I have thought endlessly about, practically killing myself with indecision. Bonnie's breeder is interested in having me complete testing and is encouraging. This particular pairing of Bonnie's parents was well thought out. The resulting puppies were very nice. Even though she specializes in black, she thinks Bonnie is beautiful, even if 'the wrong color'.

So, the purpose of breeding Bonnie is that I think she is nice, the breeder is encouraging me not to spay at this point and I want another poodle. I could easily buy another puppy, that is true. Having puppies is a lot of work, but oh- so fun. It would be challenging and never a guarantee, but I can dream about breeding my own puppy and showing him or her eventually. I don't think there is anything wrong with doing that. I don't care about money or fame, honestly. Call me naive, but I love this dogs personality and spunk. I believe puppies from her could be an asset to the breed for her diverse background and that she is at the tail end of a huge shakeup in the breeding lines. The final products (like the fullsize puppies the breeder held on to from the last litter) seem even better than Bonnie. Bonnie has the same genetic background as those absolutely gorgeous ones from the breeders last litter. I kick myself for hesitating on the beautiful black boy some lucky person now has, but it made me realize I really could breed Bonnie if I wanted to.

There are some short videos of the two puppies the breeder held onto at 6 months of age on her facebook page. I look at them and think Bonnie could have babies that looked like them! THAT thought is exciting to me. I know there is no guarantee of a show quality puppy from Bonnie. I am not that naive. Still, she should produce wonderful, smart dogs with happy, loving and sweet, sparkly personalities like she has that could excel in things like agility if not conformation.

NOLA Standards

Outwest,

The color is such a mystery. I don't think any of us can give you a solid, scientific answer. One day that will happen and Yippee for that day!

As Arreau said, many reds and apricots darken well through puppy and adolescent days. I've shown a pretty apricot pup that is now a light red (orange red, but red). I've seen deep red pups be creme by the time they are a year old.

It is entirely possible your girl is darkening. Lombardi has darkened, though he will never be red. Out of the same litter I have a light red boy, picture attached, who was as apricot as the others at birth. There is a light red girl as well.

(Can I just soap box here for a minute. Color breeders, don't pick your puppy at birth because of the color of its coat! We can have indications, but we can not know the conformation of a pup until around 8 weeks. It is not consistent nor are we being truthfull to say we breed to improve/understand conformation/our dogs are conformationally sound and follow that with picking a puppy at 2 - 3 weeks old. The darkest puppies in my Carter X Ruby litter were NOT the best puppies of the litter. I picked the best pup - and expect that pup - because it is out of color - to produce quality color. Because it has the best conformation, regardless of color, the pick puppy (conformationally) is the puppy that should continue the line. IF we are breeding to improve....)

As for pigment...B's pigment is better than Annie's. Though no one could fault Annie's pigment. B's nose looks wet it is so black. I think as long as you have black, not liver, you have quality to work with.

If you are thinking color breeding, and we desperately need quality in the color - look at her overall picture. (I'll confess to being prejudice against UKC Conformation. I've seen too many hot messes have UKC CH titles. BUT, at least the owners are working with their animals - which is much better than many do!)

Does your girl have type? How would you describe it?
How is her carriage?
Evaluate her front assembly - shoulder, neck, chest, rib spring, arm, post sternum.
Evaluate her rear assembly - croup, tail set, stiffle, hock,
Is she balanced?
Is she long/square/cobby - how? (So many say - my dog is SQUARE! It's awesome! And square is good - but that doesn't mean a longer bodied dog won't have better movement, a longer neck, still be balanced and have longer elegant lines).
How is her head?
Her eye?
Her feet?
Her pasturns?
How does she move?
Does she carry her tail?
I'm assuming, because you are considering breeding her that her temperment is pleasing.

Those things are all more important than her color or her nose not being as dark as it once was

If the answers to the above questions are positive - Lombardi would like to meet her!

Tabatha
NOLA Standards

PS Would you PM me her pedigree?