zyrcona

Opinion from a person with a scientific background:

The Canine Diversity page ArreauStandardPoodle posted is a good guide. Research strongly suggests that close inbreeding and a large degree of homozygosity results in something called 'inbreeding depression' that causes individuals to have poorer health, reduced lifespan, and in general less vitality compared to less inbred ones. In addition to this, any genetic disease carried by the dogs used is far more likely to manifest. The 7% figure quoted is the magic cutoff number, where below this figure the effects of inbreeding depression become measurably negligible. The lower the COI, the better, but anything below this 7% figure is acceptable. It's also important when calculating a COI to know how many generations it is calculated over. A 12-generation COI is better than a 10 or 5-generation one because it takes more ancestors into consideration, and should be used where possible.

A cousin, assuming no further crossover, is 6.25. Therefore, I personally would consider no mating closer than a first cousin to be acceptable. Half-aunt or uncle and great grandparent are equivalent to cousin. Although it is very important to also take into account if there are high incidences of genetic diseases that can't be tested for (SA, Addison's, etc) in the pedigree. A dog with such a background should only ever be mated with an unrelated dog with as little of this disease in its pedigree as possible.

You can also use poodlepedigree to enter test breedings and calculate COIs.

On the bitches bonding with puppies question, most bitches I know lose interest in their puppies after they are weaned. My dog formed a closer bond with her father than with her mother, and he actually seems to recognise her when I take her back there to see them.

All decisions to breed from anything (including oneself) are selfish. Usually people want to develop their own line, preserve and improve upon what they have, etc. Whether it's ethical or not depends on how you approach it.

outwest

Keith, I feel exactly as you do.

Fluffyspoos - What are you saying? That having parents with 'real' conformation titles makes a puppy more worthy? I trusted my eye. My puppy was nicer than the one from two AKC champion dogs I was looking at.

What would Bonnie bring? That is what I am asking questions for!

I know she is the smartest dog I have ever had. I know she is athletic and vigorous. I like her head. I know she is sweet and huggy. She is a great color and has a nice coat so far (I hope when she finishes coat change her tail is full and fluffy). She has proper points for her color. She has a terrific bite. She has low inbreeding (COI 3.66 10 generation, 4.39 12 generation) with a diverse pedigree. I know her breeder likes her, is supportive and helpful. I know she is healthy and hope her testing proves that. Her eyes don’t drip. Her ears don’t get infections. She has the stomach of a tank and no allergies. The breeder asked me to submit her DNA to that immune study because her relatives have come out great in it. I know she is from generations of CHIC dogs. I know she is poodly and prancy and silly. I like her size. I know she makes a good watch dog. Most of all she is our intuitive friend.

Does she need perfect conformation and an AKC title, too? Will that make her worthy? Is breeding puppies only allowed for ones who have put out the time, money and effort to show AKC conformation? Surely you jest. I would like Bonnie to have a nice sire if she was bred and agree a conformation title would be a bonus.

What I know about myself is I have bred dogs in the past and am aware of what that entails. I have shown AKC (albeit with a short haired breed) and know what that that entails. I can afford to do right by puppies and my dog. I wouldn’t want to do anything harmful to poodles. I think it would be very cool to take one of my breeders dogs AKC again (maybe a Bonnie puppy?).

Asking why breed her at all is a good question. Is wanting to take a Bonnie puppy AKC selfish? Yes, it is, it certainly is. I also know she could easily have only pet quality puppies, but what fabulous pets they would be.

The best things about Bonnie have nothing to do with the curve of her stifle or the straightness of her tail or the placement of her shoulders. I will try to get the pics and a short video up tonight if anyone is interested.

Fluffyspoos

I'm saying what makes Bonnie puppies different than the thousands being produced already?

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outwest

Does she needs to be different in some glorious way? Or, are you saying I shouldn't do it because other people are doing it and it isn't necessary?

I do not mind these questions as long as everyone remains civil.

zyrcona

To turn that question on its head, what makes the thousands any worse, any less deserving of existence or a good home than the puppies of show-winning dogs? A show might be lots of things including but not limited to a good social experience for some and an entertaining way of evaluating a dog's conformation, but a show does not assess a dog's suitability to be a dog and to be someone's companion, which is what in reality it was born to do. It is also not necessarily an assessment of good health, considering that dogs do not need health tests to be entered and deformed/ill dogs have won Crufts.

Different people look for different things in a dog. I would not choose a dog because its parents won shows. I would choose a dog based on health, COI, agility, and my own assessment of its conformation. If a dog has won a show and I don't personally like how it looks, I probably would prefer not to look at it every day if there's an alternative. Champions in its ancestry might be a bonus, but at the end of the day, I don't particularly care what a judge thinks of my dog and its ilk. The judge is not going to be working with the dog, driving around with it all day, or having it sleep on his/her bed all night.

There is no such thing as a bad dog. Irresponsible breeders and bad owners make shelter fodder. Responsible breeders' dogs don't end up in shelters, because if a breeder can't sell their puppies to good homes or they get returned, the breeder takes responsibility for them, even if it means they have to end their breeding programme and spay & neuter all their dogs to make room.

peppersb

In addition to the many things that have already been mentioned that make Bonnie puppies better than the thousands being produced (coolio color, great temperament, good health, gorgeous looks, etc.), I would like to mention two that I think are important.

1. Size. I love it that Bonnie is small. When I was looking for a new spoo, I looked everywhere for a small one. Believe me, there are not "thousands" of well bred small spoos out there. Outwest, I think you are in an ideal position to play a role in developing a line of small spoos. Bonnie's breeder already has an interest in this, right? I do hope that you will choose a small sire if you decide to proceed with the breeding. This may not lead you to an AKC championship, so those who equate "improvement of the breed" with AKC championships would doubtless disagree. What you do is up to you, of course. But I'd love to see Bonnie produce some nice small spoos!

2. Bonnie is a happy dog in a happy home. I am sure that not everyone thinks that this is important. But I think that many of the "thousands" are produced by breeders who breed their bitches too many times and/or keep dogs in kennels and/or overcrowded homes. Between puppy mills at one extreme and breeders like Arreau (and many members of this forum) at the other extreme, there is every shade of gray in between. I for one would like to buy a puppy from a breeding program where the momma dog is a pet living in a happy home. The fact that Outwest does not have financial pressures to ovebreed and that she does not have more dogs than she can manage all sounds good to me. That's the way it ought to be for all momma dogs!

From everything I have heard, I think breeding Bonnie is a great idea!

Fluffyspoos

This is your reason for breeding. I do not think this is a valid reason to breed a dog. I will not continue on this subject, but I don't support your reasons.

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ArreauStandardPoodle

I do support your reasons. She is lovely and her puppies could add positive things to the gene pool. There are many hideous dogs out there being bred. Many dogs with zero health testing in their backgrounds. Many with no testing themselves. Bonnie is none of these things. Just for the record, I have offered to let Outwest use Quincy. They are so similar in type it is ridiculous! He is on the small side. He is from black and apricot parents. He is a champion. And he will be fully tested. My opinion is that a breeding between these two dogs could create something VERY exciting!!! I have notified Bonnie's breeder, so she can look at his pedigree and photos with a trained eye to see if she feels it would be a good match.

I have to say that the idea of these two is so intriguing that I would possibly consider a puppy back as opposed to a stud fee.

Quincy, being black, would also strengthen the pigment on the puppies.

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ArreauStandardPoodle

Quincy:

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BorderKelpie

Quincy is STUNNING!

I would love to see what they can produce.
Now I really want a Bonnie puppy.............