outwest

Thanks for your thoughts.

The issues I see are her tail curl, although nicely set, and her shoulders far forward, although not as bad as many. A short backed guy would be nice. I like her head. She is extremely agile and athletic. He wouldn't need to be super muscular.

It would be SO much easier just to buy a puppy. Goodness knows there are some wonderful ones out there for a patient person. I don't mean to seem so darned wishy washy. It is only that my poodle is a little different than AKC winning poodles. Is there value in her 'type' to poodles in general? I think there is, but is it right to breed those that are a little different than AKC winning ones? That is a very tough question.

outwest

vet read hip preliminary yesterday as EXCELLENT. He said they were beautiful hips! LOL. Mailed off to OFA. He did warn they could easily read it GOOD since they are quite conservative, but either way we move forward with the other testing.

Luvmyspoos

Congratulations on the hip testing!

You are right about it being easier and cheaper to buy a new dog as opposed to breeding your own. No question there. Having done both, and having appreciated both ways of obtaining fantastic dogs... it comes down to how 'good' is your female.

I personally think she is absolutely GORGEOUS!! But that is from pictures.

Does she or do her lines 'work'? Hunt, agility, therapy etc?? I am asking just for my own info :-)

outwest

They work for me. I know, not an answer. She has agility poodles as cousins and ancestors galore. They are not sedate poodles, but not hyper- super smart dogs and I think pretty. She was appropriately cautious as a little puppy, but with socialization she is confident and sweet, too. Some of her litter mates were quite full of themselves as pups. I chose the sweet, sparkly one.

zyrcona

Probably other people will disagree, but I would say any poodle who is healthy (as proven by proper health tests) and correct with a good temperament and an owner prepared to put in research and effort is worth breeding. The gene pool is shrinking and this is only being made worse by people excessively breeding particular individuals -- namely show-winning dogs -- to the neglect of the rest of it. Already I know breeders who are having to go abroad to keep the COI down, because there's just not a suitable unrelated stud they can find in the country. Yes, it's a good idea to breed for type by choosing a mate who complements your dog and makes up for its faults, but it's also very important to preserve the genetic diversity we have and not cause prolonged bottlenecking, as this will ultimately result in a sickly and genetically diseased population.

Note: I would say tail curl and snow nose (which is what I understand this is) are really minor faults. Nobody has bothered with tails for pretty much the lifetime of the breed, because historically they were chopped off, and the variety of tails that occur simply reflects this. Neither of these faults adversely affect the dog's health or activity. A fault that would rule out breeding in my opinion would be an incorrect bite, too narrow chest, etc. -- anything that impedes the dog's comfort or its ability as a working or companion animal. Choose a black, red, or holding apricot stud with a dark nose and a straighter tail and good shoulders.

outwest

Zyrcone, I totally agree. What I see she needs is a male with as straight a tail as possible, with shoulders set back a little further and a good black nose. I would also like a longer leg proportionally, but not too leggy because her athleticism is something I would like to retain. One of her cousins was in the seaworld shows, for example.

She has an excellent tail set, so his wouldn't need to be perfect as long as it was a little straighter. She has the muscle, the chest depth and the width with excellent muscle in the rear, so he wouldn't have to be a bruiser of a poodle. I like the amount of angulation in her rear. I would not want a dog with too much angulation. Some have mentioned she needed more, but the amount she has is great for athleticism. She practically flies when she jumps with such ease - airborn is to be expected. More than this and I don't think she would be nearly as agile or walk on her rear legs or pop up and stand like a meercat - SO cute- I have no idea how she does it.


I know to look for health and testing and nice personality. I need someone who isn't going to flip about a mini in her background. Someone who would understand her 'type'. Bonnie is a little pixy. She is an active, intelligent, loving and athletic girl. My sweet, sweet whippet is a great dog. Bonnie is like another person in the house wearing fur pajamas.

I think personality, sweetness, health, intelligence and sparkliness are the most important. It would be nice to try for great conformation, but honestly it is secondary compared to these other things.

Even so, is there anything else I should be looking for conformationally that is important that she lacks?

ArreauStandardPoodle

It would indeed be way easier to purchase a puppy from elsewhere, but it is the most incredible rush to get to choose a puppy from a litter that has been with you from their moment of birth. You have had eight weeks to pick apart their conformation, to see every little quirk and nuance in their character, to pick the puppy who absolutely, for EVERY reason, best suits you and the purpose you have for it. I do not encourage many people to breed, because most do not have a dog I feel is worthy of being bred, and people are so naive sometimes. They have no idea of the back stabbing and ugliness that is part of dog breeding. But you have a bit of a support network and the blessing of your breeder, your girl is lovely, comes from health tested parents, has a low COI...So many things that so many dogs being bred today do not have. Ask Trillium what it was like going through the process of us picking Cayenne out of our last litter. She talks to me often about how glorious it was to have those little babies in her home for eight weeks...watching, watching, watching, looking for the best puppy to add to our breeding program for so many reasons, and to her family, looking for the very best fit.

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zyrcona

I think she has a very nice bottom. It looks correct and as though it permits normal movement, and that's what's most important. Most of the angulation on a dog in a clip such as a Scandinavian or Modern comes from how the hair is shaped, so I would say what she has is fine. Her tail set is correct and I personally wouldn't worry if the tail is gay. The standard in my country is 'as straight as possible' but TBH I like gay tails and they don't seem to be overly penalised.

I can try. Can you get four photos of her:

One from the side, in 'show posture'.
One from the front, head up, standing straight.
One from directly above her, standing straight.
One directly behind, tail up.

CharismaticMillie

Here rear looks better here. You had photos of her where her stifle appeared stick straight. Stack her up properly with the tip of her toes placed straight down from her pin bone and then we can see her angulation better. The standard calls for the pelvis to be at a 30 degree and then definite of bend of stifle. Similarly, you want equal angulation in the front with the shoulder layback and the upper arm angle. This allows proper, balanced movement and is a balanced dog. I may have missed it if you already discussed it, but where are her shoulders located? Are they too far forward like many poodles? Or are they set back at the withers as they should be? It's OK if they are forward as most are...but keep this in mind and aim to breed up to a dog with great front placement.

I'm with you, Outwest. I like a nicely anguished rear but I too don't like overdone. I wasn't trying to say that Bonnie didn't have enough angulation, it's so hard to tell with limited photos not necessarily properly stacked, but it did appear she *could* be a tad straight on the stifle. Recently you've shown pictures that look like she does have a correct rear. I think she has lots of positives.

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Happy tailwags from Peckerwood's Thoroughly Modern Millie, CGC and Ch. Safari's Specter, CGC!

outwest

I will try to get better pics this weekend, Zyrcona. A leggier guy with a shorter back? Here are a couple that might help:
front (need to get front on view):


side (sort of- I'm at the wrong angle - looks a little cobby in this pic):

a little butt (good profile of head?):


Arreau, I know about the nasty things people say. Backstabbing and ugliness are a complete waste of my time. I feel sorry for people who feel they need to do that to make themselves feel superior. I have no idea why people find it necessary, but I refuse to buy into that ridiculous crap. They are pets, for goodness sakes, PETS!
CM, Most photos are of her playing around or moving.

I guess I need to formally pose her. When I showed her UKC she naturally stacked far better than I could place her. When I tried to control her too much she didn't look as good. I let her do her own thing using a loose leash when she trotted, too. Usually she held her head up. Tiger is awesome looking. Bonnie doesn't compare to him in type, but I like her, too.

Thanks for your honest thoughts everyone. I will try to get some more formal pics this weekend. btw: people think she is a little cobby because of the mini, but that is not true at ALL. Her body type is from her moms side, with no mini in it. Her sire, who had the mini back there, was far leggier and shorter bodied than her mom was.