The darkening apricot, nose color, and breeding questions - Page 12 - Poodle Forum - Standard Poodle, Toy Poodle, Miniature Poodle Forum ALL Poodle owners too!

CharismaticMillie · 02-06-2012, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outwest

I sent you an email. Let me know if you got it, CM. Check your junk email folder.

Yes, that is all I have seen- DRAWINGS of a correct front end. Why is that? Do so few poodles have a correct front end that it is easier to draw it than show it in the flesh? That must mean it is a very difficult thing to get put together correctly.

I speculate that is because of the history of hiding the front end and tweeking the grooming to create illusions. All the more reason, in my opinion, to allow a shorter cut in AKC showing. Too much flies under the wire under all that hair. Whatever people say, seeing- not feeling it under fluff - is the way to tell if it is right or not.

Yep. That's why you see a lot of nice looking rear ends and not so many nice fronts. The fronts are covered in hair. Thankfully, I think at least some breeders have recognized this problem and have begun to try and breed better fronts. Too many dogs have overangulated rears with nothing on front to balance the dog. I want so badly to find a nice bitch to show with a correctly angulated front. Tiger has a good front with amazing shoulders but of course not all aspects of his front are perfect. I'd love to see what he could produce with a bitch with an outstanding front. I really love fronts. Ha ha.

Rayah-QualitySPs · 02-07-2012, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jility

The Breeding Checklist
________________________________________
The first and foremost thing when it comes to breeding dogs is good health! NOBODY wants a sick dog! No matter how beautiful a dog is, poor health or frustrating health issues will cause misery for the dog as well as the owner. There are no tests for most health issues. I believe in health testing, but you must go far deeper when deciding whether or not to breed a dog!

Dear Jility;

I agree that every poodle breeder must go “far deeper” before breeding poodles. The siblings and relations behind both poodles must be investigated for temperament and health issues.

Low COI is just one tool. It should be used but all breeders should also calculate the influence of Wycliffe on the pedigree. This is where the genetic bottleneck occurred. A breeder will usually have to go back more than 10 or 12 generations to calculate this number. There are some very knowledgeable people in poodles; one is Kathryn Foran, who is willing to help breeders calculate these numbers. Again these numbers are just an additional tool for breeders to use in addition to health testing and pedigree research.

Where I disagree with you is that health should be the number one priority. The temperament of the poodle should be the number one priority. If you do not have a poodle that can be part of the family no one, including the poodle, will be happy. A healthy poodle that fear bites, is shy or is aggressive is much more of a dilemma than a poodle that has bite problems or thyroid disease. In my honest opinion health should be the second priority when looking to breed poodles.

Temperament does not necessarily mean the ability to swim or retrieve but the ability to be taught to swim, retrieve or hunt. Poodles are supposed to be smart and willing to please people. You can call this characteristic whatever you want, including biddable, but this is, IMO, definitely the essence of a poodle. Look at Emily Cain’s Poodle History Project and you will see poodles were circus performers, herders, army dogs, smuggler dogs. The smuggler poodles were taught to “dislike men in uniforms”. A smart dog indeed but if unable to be trained they would be useless. The Poodle History Project shows many more poodle jobs than I have listed and proves that Versatility was the hallmark of the historical poodle.

You are correct that there are no tests for some health issues, such as bloat, epilepsy or allergies but all health issues are not genetic. In my opinion, bloat is genetic but at this time there is no proof either way, just opinions. Sebaceous Adenitis was thought to be a simple recessive genetic disease and has now been proven not to be a simple recessive but polygenetic.

How many autoimmune diseases, (IBD, allergies, Addisons, thyroid disease), are affected by the dogs environment? Some of these environmental issues including dog food ingredients that contain hormones, antibiotics, anti-inflammatory drugs and melamine. What effect does over-vaccination have on the immune system? These theories are another tool that should be studied by all breeders; all breeders should make decisions about what health issues are non-negotiable before they breed a litter based on scientific fact not feelings. When a health issue crops up I agree that breeders should share that information. First and foremost with all puppy buyers that could be affected. I do not agree that there is only one correct way to share health information. I know that the Canadian Poodle Club’s Health Registry 2000-2004 has information that is not verified/proven by veterinarian paperwork. How did this happen? I am not sure but what I do know is people are human and mistakes can be made.

I am in no way advocating breeding any health issues. Poodles need to be healthy and health tested before being bred. I agree with Jility that health is much more than just health testing.

As for length of body, the SP standard is absurd. Anyone can measure square! It is WHY the dog is square that counts!

Some sort of written breed standard of characteristics is required to improve or call any breed distinct. I think that over many years the breed standard, or benchmark, has proven itself by producing poodles that continue to look like poodles - not like a generic wolf type dog. I agree that interpretation of the standard leaves much to be desired - especially in the show ring. What is important tho is that 50 years from now humans will still be able to have a benchmark for what makes a poodle different from a greyhound or akita.
If you look at the illustrated poodle standard Illustrated Breed Standard
Page 4 you will see a skeleton that shows why the poodle is square. The bones are clearly labelled to demonstrate the length of pelvis compared to the femur and length of back. The illustrated standard goes on to state “the loin is short, broad and muscular” Page 14. The angulation of the hindquarters balances that of the forequarters”. The poodle standard is a blueprint that reputable breeders should have vast knowledge of before attempting to breed. Breeders must using this blueprint as a tool when making breeding decisions.

Breeding poodles should not be profit oriented but research oriented to improve the breed!

CharismaticMillie · 02-07-2012, 06:38 PM

Rayah, thank you for that elaborate, well thought out post. I very much enjoyed reading what you wrote and agree with what you have said.

outwest · 02-07-2012, 07:32 PM

I enjoyed it, too. Much food for thought.

I still feel temperament is above conformation. For the record, I do like Quincy for his lovely personality. He is the blackest of black from an apricot mama. He makes me smile the way Bonnie makes me smile. Yes, poodles should look this way or that way, yes, we should breed to the physical standard as much as possible, yes, they should be able to be trained to do this and do that, but you can't train personality. You can breed for a personality type, though. I know in essence it is possible to get the holy grail: health, personality and looks, but it is mighty hard. What do you choose?

I would like to thank everyone for the (mostly) civil discussion here. I have taken down the video of Bonnie now. If anyone wants to see it for any reason, let me know. People have strong opinions about breeding or not breeding. I appreciate that you took my honest questions and offered constructive thoughts.

I showed Bonnie in a Miami and still no one bashed my little pixy.

Thank you.

faerie · 02-08-2012, 03:06 AM

if your bonnie is half the personality that quincy is, then you are lucky. that boy's joy of life is just wonderful. (i have a huge poodle crush on him and have for a long time.)
i don't know shizzle about conformation, being a pet owner, but i do know about personality. I've met poodles who are just good dogs, but they aren't the great dogs.
the great poodles in my opinion are the ones who are bounce through life exuding joy.
and being well put together is a perk.

wickednag · 02-08-2012, 03:14 AM

This from a pet owner who would never breed. I would never put my dog at risk, I do not show and never will. I have a great example of the breed according to my vet who also has a standard. I would never put Hazel at risk by having her bred. There are very many reputable breeders breeding very nice dogs. I really don't think the poodle world needs me or my Hazel, no matter how wonderful her temperament, her color or her confirmation, to add to the mix. Just my thoughts...Also just read one or two posts on this

PoodlePowerBC · 02-08-2012, 02:35 PM

Does this mean I am asking for too much ... I want Health and Temperament

But I'll gladly take a poodle out of the litter that lacks conformation, as you can see by my dear Russell

BTW, I have my name on a list for a smaller Black female, as long as health testing comes out OK. Bitch is to be bred sometime this summer, and she is an absolute sweety

I still have to meet the stud, but Fingers crossed!!!!

Rayah-QualitySPs · 02-08-2012, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoodlePowerBC

Does this mean I am asking for too much ... I want Health and Temperament

But I'll gladly take a poodle out of the litter that lacks conformation, as you can see by my dear Russell

BTW, I have my name on a list for a smaller Black female, as long as health testing comes out OK. Bitch is to be bred sometime this summer, and she is an absolute sweety

I still have to meet the stud, but Fingers crossed!!!!

There is no need in this day and age not to have temperament, health and conformation in your puppy. Poor conformation poodles should not be bred by reputable breeders.

Buy your puppy from a reputable breeder!

Please visit the Versatility in Poodles website at Versatility In Poodles This non-profit website provides valuable information on how not to be a victim of an unethical breeder, how to evaluate a breeder, questions to ask a breeder plus much more.

Good luck with your future purchase.

outwest · 02-08-2012, 08:29 PM

I have read through that Versatility in Poodles site. There is some terrific information in it.

PoodlePowerBC · 02-09-2012, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rayah-QualitySPs

There is no need in this day and age not to have temperament, health and conformation in your puppy. Poor conformation poodles should not be bred by reputable breeders.

Buy your puppy from a reputable breeder!

I am ONLY looking at breeders that Health test, show, do agility, therapy, etc. But correct me if I'm mistaken, not all puppies from every litter have perfect conformation????? If they do, why do breeders hold back certain puppies for themselves for breeding stock or show, then release them at 5 or 6 months because they aren't "right". I was led to understand it is usually because of conformation ... therefore a potential show dog becomes pet stock, leading to my statement "I'll gladly take a poodle out of the litter that lacks conformation"