Red parents, black puppy? - Page 6 - Poodle Forum - Standard Poodle, Toy Poodle, Miniature Poodle Forum ALL Poodle owners too!
   

Go Back   Poodle Forum - Standard Poodle, Toy Poodle, Miniature Poodle Forum ALL Poodle owners too! > Poodle Forums > Poodle Talk > Poodle Breeding

Poodle Breeding Poodle Breeding and Breeder discussion

PoodleForum.com is the premier Poodle Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-04-2011, 09:22 AM   #51 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 48,114, Level: 100 Points: 48,114, Level: 100 Points: 48,114, Level: 100
Activity: 8.8% Activity: 8.8% Activity: 8.8%
Last Achievements
 
peppersb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Names of dogs: Bob, Cammie and Sam
Poodle Type: standard
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 1,073
Thanks: 4,078
Thanked 2,002 Times in 725 Posts
Default

Zyrcona -- The amount of information about genetics that you have shared here is just amazing. Thank you so much! I can't wait to see your book.
peppersb is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 12-04-2011, 12:47 PM   #52 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 4,275, Level: 44 Points: 4,275, Level: 44 Points: 4,275, Level: 44
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
zyrcona's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Poodle Type: standard
Location: England
Posts: 501
Thanks: 166
Thanked 808 Times in 337 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by peppersb View Post
Zyrcona -- The amount of information about genetics that you have shared here is just amazing. Thank you so much! I can't wait to see your book.
Thanks. Here’s what I’m currently using for a working theory. As usual, it’s subject to change should some more information come to light. I don’t think I have enough data on some of these genes to write a book on it yet.

I’ve found most of my observations agree best with Dr John Armstrong’s theories Color Genes in the Poodle and most of my own thoughts on the unidentified genes are based on his. Apologies for the superscripts and subscripts not coming through.

Currently known (these are all mapped genes that have been scientifically demonstrated to exist and ascribed to these particular colour traits):

E locus:
E eumelanin (black or brown coat)
e phaeomelanin (red, apricot, cream, or white coat)

B locus
B black eumelanin
b brown eumelanin

K locus (K locus patterns are invisible on ee dogs)
K solid eumelanin colour
kbr reveals A configuration with brindled overlay. Results in brindle (sable with brindle overlay) and ‘dirty phantom’ (phantom with brindle overlay).
ky reveals A configuration

A locus (pattern is invisible on ee or KK dogs)
ay sable
at phantom
a recessive black (recessive to phantom and sable, but causes no pattern in aa dogs; thought to be rare in poodles)

D locus
d light eumelanin, resulting in born blue (and presumably born café) dogs; thought to be uncommon in poodles
D dark eumelanin

S locus
S non parti
sp parti (white splodges on coat)

Currently unknown (these genes are theoretical and have not yet been mapped)

C locus
ca apricot
cc cream
cw white

R locus
R darkens phaeomelanin in coat
r normal phaeomelanin in coat

These two loci are thought to account for the complicated spectrum of red and apricot dogs that can occur. From reddest to whitest and assuming no clearing or other dilution factors, these are:
RRcaca deep red
Rr caca red
Rr cacc light red
Rrcacw red that probably goes apricot on the legs and underside
rrcaca even dark apricot
Rrcccc probably apricot
Rrcccw apricot that lightens slightly on the legs and underside
rrcacc apricot that lightens slightly on the legs and underside
rrcacw apricot that goes pale cream on the legs and underside
rrcccc cream
rrcccw cream that turns white on legs and underside
rrcwcw white


V locus (clearing -- blues and cafés are thought to be Vv, silver and silver beige VV, and holding black and brown vv)
V clearing
v holding

Weirdoes (anomalies that don’t seem to fit current theory)

Some brown dogs from black parents are reported to fade similar to cafés even though there is nowhere for a V to come from. Some people have claimed they bred together two browns and got all black puppies, which would be impossible if both dogs were bb. It may be that there is a different locus, also recessive, that can produce brown eumelanin, and that this form of brown fades through some other mechanism.

Sable and phantom do not exhibit the dominance pattern most commonly quoted in the literature. I know of a breeder with two phantoms who regularly throw sable puppies, which would not be possible if ay was always dominant to at. There also exist dogs that appear to have both sable and phantom patterns. ayat seems to be variable, often producing a ‘shaded sable’ that holds its colour better in the dark phantom areas, but sometimes looking more sable or more phantom.
zyrcona is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to zyrcona For This Useful Post:
CharismaticMillie (12-04-2011), Mahlon (06-29-2014), peppersb (12-04-2011)
Old 12-04-2011, 04:58 PM   #53 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 22,496, Level: 100 Points: 22,496, Level: 100 Points: 22,496, Level: 100
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Names of dogs: Swizzle Stick
Poodle Type: Silver Toy
Posts: 3,873
Thanks: 5,424
Thanked 3,040 Times in 2,006 Posts
Default

This is a fascinating thread. It is clear that color is far more complicated than a simple Punnet square. A book investigating this complex topic is clearly needed.
CT Girl is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to CT Girl For This Useful Post:
CharismaticMillie (12-04-2011)
Old 12-19-2011, 04:11 PM   #54 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 68,095, Level: 100 Points: 68,095, Level: 100 Points: 68,095, Level: 100
Activity: 0.8% Activity: 0.8% Activity: 0.8%
Last Achievements
 
outwest's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Names of dogs: Bonnie, Jazz and Cooper
Poodle Type: Two Standards and a Miniature
Location: Southern California
Posts: 5,882
Thanks: 5,715
Thanked 7,405 Times in 3,044 Posts
Default

Zyrcona, what do you make of my dark cream girl who seems to still be getting darker? How is it possible for poodle hair to get darker when most poodles get lighter? I still don't get it. Once before you thought she might have a certain genetic makeup, but at 11 months, she is solid light orange now, darker than she was a month ago. It seems like every time she is groomed and trimmed she comes back a little darker. She had a light stripe down her back for a few months, but that is now gone with her sides becoming the color of the stripe. I went on a walk this afternoon with her cousin who was also a cream puppy and he is turning white at 6 months old. My SIL and I had an endless discussion about this. He has a completely unrelated sire to my dog, but his mother was my dogs Grandmother (last breeding for her at 7 years old).

more info:
Her toenails have lost the black stripe they had up until she was about 9 months old and now almost match her hair color. Her black nose is changing, too. It looks like it is going to brown out, although it is still dark. It looks dark chocolate candy when the sun hits it. Looking at her straight on it appears black.

Because of the nose changing color along with her hair, is it possible she is some variant of a brown or really is an apricot? She was born with pitch black points. She carries brown, cream, apricot and mostly black with no whites at all. She has no parti factor. Parents were nonfading blacks (at least, at several years old they are still very black). There is only one cream close in her pedigree (no other creams), browns on both sides (just a few) and a whole line of apricot standards several generations back, but only on one side. I found one silver and one blue way back. Her littermates were a rainbow of colors- very light milky cream to mine which was a greyish/tan cream (odd color), dark brown and black. Her brown littermates are still dark brown last I heard.

What would you say her color genetics are?

Last edited by outwest; 12-19-2011 at 04:52 PM.
outwest is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to outwest For This Useful Post:
poodlesplease (12-19-2011), zyrcona (12-21-2011)
Old 12-21-2011, 02:18 PM   #55 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 4,275, Level: 44 Points: 4,275, Level: 44 Points: 4,275, Level: 44
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
zyrcona's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Poodle Type: standard
Location: England
Posts: 501
Thanks: 166
Thanked 808 Times in 337 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by outwest View Post
Zyrcona, what do you make of my dark cream girl who seems to still be getting darker?
Your dog sounds like a similar colour to mine. She was born light apricot, lightened slightly as a puppy (retaining the colour on her ears and the tip of her tail) and then developed a sort of warm darker tone over her back and the upper side of her neck.

I think what you are seeing with the darkening coat that looks darker after it's been cut is the dog's coat becoming denser as it matures and giving a deeper tone. Because apricot is such a light strawberry blond colour, the old hair quite possibly gets paler from UV exposure at the tips (as this sort of hair colour can do on humans) and the faster-growing guard hairs are mostly light. So when the dog's coat is long and gets clipped, it appears to be much darker underneath, until the guard hairs overtake the rest of the coat and the tips of the hairs get exposed to the sun. :-)

The nose colour is probably what's called a 'snow nose'. If your dog was born with correct black points, they won't change to brown, but they can sometimes lose their colour a bit.

I think what I said before was that your dog would be vv if both her parents were non-fading blacks. This means that she won't clear (her colour probably won't change significantly after she's one year old).

Your dog's parents are both Ee (dark coat). Your dog flipped tails both times and got ee (light coat). It's not possible to tell what underlying apricot spectrum colours the parents are as they are hidden by the black and there's no test for them. I would guess from your description she is one of the mid-range colours with at least one apricot gene in the theory above, possibly cacw.

Therefore, her genotype would be ee cacw vv.

My dog is cacw. She is the offspring of a cacc Vv dog, from a blue grandmother, who was born apricot and cleared to cream in his second year and a cwcw vv white bitch from black descent. All the puppies were either apricot cacw or cream cccw. Half of them will have inherited the V clearing gene from their dad. My dog is 18 months old and has not cleared yet, so (touch wood) she is hopefully vv.
zyrcona is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to zyrcona For This Useful Post:
ArreauStandardPoodle (12-22-2011), Keithsomething (12-21-2011), outwest (12-22-2011), peppersb (12-21-2011)
Old 12-21-2011, 03:34 PM   #56 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 26,205, Level: 100 Points: 26,205, Level: 100 Points: 26,205, Level: 100
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Keithsomething's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Names of dogs: Elphaba,Neko,Scooter, & Heaven
Poodle Type: Standard's
Location: Northeast Ohio
Posts: 1,951
Thanks: 943
Thanked 704 Times in 353 Posts
Default

I find colour so interesting! Heaven and Bonnie were legit the same colour when they were puppies (Bonnie maybe a shade darker) but now they look nothing alike colourwise!

Heaven's dam is a red/apricot that faded to cream and her sire is a beautiful blue. Heaven is essentially a white now...BUT from everything I've seen I'm more inclined to blame the clearing on her dam (who is a cream now from her red apricot colour) than I am her sire. Red breeders have been dabbling in blues for as long as there have been red poodles and with some great success like Tabatha has said.

I'll attach some photos and explain them

The first is Heavens Dam at about 9mo
The second is Heavens dam a few months ago

and the third is Heavens sire
Attached Thumbnails
Red parents, black puppy?-heaven-dam-puppy.jpg   Red parents, black puppy?-heaven-dam-adult.jpg   Red parents, black puppy?-heavens-sire.jpg  
__________________
“What you do speaks so loudly I can’t hear what you are saying.” - Henry Adams
Keithsomething is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Keithsomething For This Useful Post:
outwest (12-22-2011)
Old 12-22-2011, 02:48 AM   #57 (permalink)
Junior Member
Points: 970, Level: 17 Points: 970, Level: 17 Points: 970, Level: 17
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 17
Thanks: 10
Thanked 15 Times in 8 Posts
Default

she may develop the red colour with age, my baby was supposed to be champagne and was when we got him but has changed into apricot with age.
mozarticus is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to mozarticus For This Useful Post:
outwest (12-22-2011)
Old 12-22-2011, 11:09 PM   #58 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 68,095, Level: 100 Points: 68,095, Level: 100 Points: 68,095, Level: 100
Activity: 0.8% Activity: 0.8% Activity: 0.8%
Last Achievements
 
outwest's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Names of dogs: Bonnie, Jazz and Cooper
Poodle Type: Two Standards and a Miniature
Location: Southern California
Posts: 5,882
Thanks: 5,715
Thanked 7,405 Times in 3,044 Posts
Default

Thanks, Zyrcona! I am saving your posts to go over them until I fully get it. It is entirely possible that her coat lightens over time with the sun (it is sunny here a lot) and it is an illusion that it keeps looking darker when I trim her, but I don't know- it is pretty darned light orange now. It could also be that her adult hair is coming in, so it is denser than it used to be and so the color looks deeper.

Bonnie has never been as dark as Heaven was as a puppy. Heavens dam as an adult is a different shade of apricot/cream/red than Bonnie. Pretty dogs, Keith!

I hunted around for a picture that showed her color as close to the way it actually is (it photographs differently depending on the light). This one was outside in natural light and the most accurate one I could find (she was 10 months old). Her ears are slightly darker than her body. You can also compare her nose to my whippet's very black nose and see what I mean about her nose color. On her own, the nose is black. Next to the whippet with the true black nose, it now has a dark chocolate hue that I have noticed over the last month.



Poodle colors are so cool because, other than black poodles, they all seem to change somehow. I don't know of any other breed of dog that does that. You never know what color dog you have with a poodle and sometimes the color continues to evolve throughout their lives. Fascinating.

Last edited by outwest; 12-22-2011 at 11:15 PM.
outwest is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to outwest For This Useful Post:
minipoodlelover (12-24-2011), peppersb (12-23-2011)
Old 12-23-2011, 08:48 AM   #59 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 48,114, Level: 100 Points: 48,114, Level: 100 Points: 48,114, Level: 100
Activity: 8.8% Activity: 8.8% Activity: 8.8%
Last Achievements
 
peppersb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Names of dogs: Bob, Cammie and Sam
Poodle Type: standard
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 1,073
Thanks: 4,078
Thanked 2,002 Times in 725 Posts
Default

Oh my goodness, Outwest. Bonnie is absolutely gorgeous. Takes my breath away! The color is stunning! And she looks like such a happy girl!

I am always interested in your posts about Bonnie because my Cammie has similar genetics. She is cream (or light apricot?) and her parents are both black. She has a fair amount of white in her pedigree on both sides.

She has not faded much, but (sadly) I am starting to notice white/cream roots under her beautiful golden retriever colored ears, especially at the bottom. After her most recent grooming, I noticed that the hair on her back seemed just as dark as previously, but less of a red or orange hue--more khaki colored. I will try to post some photos later.
peppersb is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to peppersb For This Useful Post:
outwest (12-23-2011)
Old 12-23-2011, 09:54 AM   #60 (permalink)
Senior Member
Points: 4,602, Level: 46 Points: 4,602, Level: 46 Points: 4,602, Level: 46
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
minipoodlelover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Poodle Type: Mini
Posts: 527
Thanks: 748
Thanked 478 Times in 282 Posts
Default

Bonnie looks darker even from the last photos I saw of her! Her color is really beautiful.
minipoodlelover is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to minipoodlelover For This Useful Post:
outwest (12-23-2011)
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Potential Problem? Socialising My Puppy With My Parents' Dogs Hayley22 Poodle Talk 19 11-01-2011 08:55 PM
My Black Standard Puppy (pic heavy) Standard Poodle Pictures 15 10-29-2010 08:51 PM
seeking a brown or red puppy poodleseeker Member Introductions 12 07-16-2010 09:10 AM
Red Puppy Pictures (4wk old Standards) *heather* Poodle Pictures 31 01-22-2010 04:44 PM
Is my standard puppy silver or black? brandon4589 Poodle Talk 40 01-18-2010 05:35 PM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 02:16 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2
All (C) PoodleForum.com
PetGuide.com
Basset.net DobermanTalk.com GoldenRetrieverForum.com OurBeagleWorld.com
BoxerForums.com DogForums.com GoPitbull.com PoodleForum.com
BulldogBreeds.com FishForums.com HavaneseForum.com SpoiledMaltese.com
CatForum.com GermanShepherds.com Labradoodle-dogs.net YorkieForum.com
Chihuahua-People.com RetrieverBreeds.com