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Old 03-07-2011, 09:59 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default A gimmick...or not?

The AKC and PCA recognize 3 types of poodles


Toy

Mini

Standard


Indeed Europe does recognize another size, but this is not Europe.

So...

Teacup

Royal

Moyen/Klein

To breed and to market as such - isn't that nothing more than a sales gimmick?

There are oversized Minis and smaller Standards. There are really large Standards and tiny Toys.

ANY breeder mentioned on this forum by a potential puppy owner as selling a Teacup (small toy) or a Royal (large standard) would QUICKLY be warned away from a BYB or Gimmick seller.

Why not then, a Moyen or a Klein breeder? A size no more recognized in the US than a Royal or Teacup. If an import and registered as such in Europe, then why not the investment to breed to another European dog that is registered as such?

I do have such a HUGE problem with this, and can not believe it is accepted nor encouraged by PCA, which I consider the primary governing body of poodle standards, though I am following this email by asking several PCA members.

(I should note that my problem with this "Moyen/Klein" breeding comes from repeating a breeding done in the early 80's that (red mini x apricot standard) has been the source of the red color, but a breeding that structurally and in temperment has taken almost 30 years to correct and still, is not corrected.

Breeding for a color litter of small standards (17 - 20 inches) could be done, and done well, by using smaller standards - though would certainly require much more of an investment than to use animals already "on the farm" and it would likely take 2 generations - maybe more. Taking a short cut sets the color back - again - and I can not believe any color breeder who has truly dedicated themselves and their program to education and awareness of the problems the color faces and to improving the color in conformation and temperment, would support this breeding in ANY way.

Please notice I am not addressing other colors - though I could, as the principle is certainly the same. I am limiting my focus to red/apricot, as that is my dedication and my hard earned experience.

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Old 03-07-2011, 10:51 AM   #2 (permalink)
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I'll give my thoughts, bearing in mind they're from the perspective of a Poodle pet owner with limited interest in showing/ breeding!

I think the fact that the Moyen size is recognised in Europe gives it a legitimacy not awarded to the tiny toy/ royal. So someone could (and has, I'm sure) imported a Moyen or Klein from a strong European pedigree and that dog would have some legitimacy as being an actual size versus a ridiculous marketing pitch. So for me, bringing over something that exists in Europe but does not exist in NA makes some sense. We see people on this forum all the time who would like a dog that falls in the over 15 inches but under 22 inches space, and calling them Moyens/ Kleins helps to distinguish those dogs.

As for breeding a miniature pedigreed dog to a standard pedigreed dog, well on paper that makes no sense to me. While Poodles are all of course one breed, there are such structural and health differences that bringing the two together could result in a big mess (as seen in the past breeding you alluded to). So without knowing who the breeder is or what their intentions are, as a theory only, I don't like the idea of mixing the two sizes.

But then this makes me wonder how the moyen or klein size came about in Europe. Did they breed minis up? Did they breed standards down? Did they mix the two? Knowledge of how the size came to be in Europe might educate breeding practices here, and perhaps is behind the breeding you mentioned.
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Old 03-07-2011, 01:38 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I have NO problem with the Klein/Moyen usage AS long as one is breeding the European dogs at this standard to others of it's kind. One needs to look at the "breeder". I have seen fantastic dogs coming from actual import Moyen/Klein Poodles here in the US. On the other hand when looking at websites there are a couple of people breeding a 20" standard to a 15" Mini & calling them Moyen. To me that is just a mixed poodle breeding & not a true Moyen/Klein. In other countries there is an upper height limit to Standard Poodles so there is no such thing as a Royal St. To me the Royal & the Teacup is a marketing gimmick since NO legit registry accepts these terms.
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Old 03-07-2011, 01:48 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3dogs View Post
I have NO problem with the Klein/Moyen usage AS long as one is breeding the European dogs at this standard to others of it's kind. One needs to look at the "breeder". I have seen fantastic dogs coming from actual import Moyen/Klein Poodles here in the US. On the other hand when looking at websites there are a couple of people breeding a 20" standard to a 15" Mini & calling them Moyen. To me that is just a mixed poodle breeding & not a true Moyen/Klein. In other countries there is an upper height limit to Standard Poodles so there is no such thing as a Royal St. To me the Royal & the Teacup is a marketing gimmick since NO legit registry accepts these terms.
I agree with the Teacup and Royal titles. These are most definately sales gimmicks to lure people who want tiny toys and large Standards!
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Old 03-07-2011, 07:40 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I think you may be reading a bit to far into this situation Tabatha, I'm sure we could easily ask Karen why she feels breeding her mini to a standard is a good idea and see what she has to say.
but I'm about 100% sure that it has NOTHING to do with creating a new colour of standard poodles like the original breeding of red minis to apricot standards was for...

The reason that I said this breeding seemed fine to me (as you indirectly quoted me on a place I couldn't defend myself...seeing as I wasn't invited to that "exclusive" club ;D )

Quote:
Originally Posted by NOLA Standards View Post
"Oh, that is X. I'm sure her pups are lovely."
was because Karen seems to know what she is doing, she prefers the size of a klein vs. a standard and whether you or any other AKC person likes it or not shes breeding them, these dogs do not impact your breeding program and have no sway over what you are doing either (since shes breeding "kleins" and not standards people can't even be like "Oh theres another BYB breeding reds again")

I'll also mention that Karin isn't a BYB using "gimmicks"...because according to EVERY member on this forum Health Testing for every known condition (that has tests available), participating in conformation to prove her stock, participating in breed sports, and a whole other laundry list of factors disqualifies her from being a BYB...it must be the colour shes breeding, because she meets every other criteria asked of a breeder
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Old 03-07-2011, 11:12 PM   #6 (permalink)
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The only way I would get a Moyen poodle is if I directly imported it from Europe. I would want it to be a real Moyen, meaning a Moyen to Moyen breeding not small standard to miniature the way many breeders do it here.
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Old 03-08-2011, 04:07 AM   #7 (permalink)
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I have to point out that this particular litter is not being sold as a Kleinpudel litter. Karin say on her website what it is - a Standard/Mini breeding that will be "similiar" to a Klein.

Also, most of her dogs are either imported Kleins or offspring of her imports.
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Old 03-08-2011, 07:19 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Then why not invest in another European dog?

IF either the stud or damn were titled and excellent examples of the breed, perhaps I could choke it down on a "better my line premise".

But neither are.
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Old 03-08-2011, 07:33 AM   #9 (permalink)
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First of all people in USA are breeding after the AKC standard !!!
There is no Klein/Moyen in the AKC standard.

You have toy, miniature, standard.

In the FCI standard (most European country's go by them)
We have Toy, Miniature, Medium and Standard
Klein/Moyen is a German word for a medium poodle.

So in America you dont even have a medium sized poodle so it would either categorize as a big miniature or a small standard.

If people are breeding dogs with a AKC pedigree you stick with the AKC standard but if you where registering the pups with a FCI pedigree you would go with there rules.

These are all the same dogs just different height limit

So you can see the difference in height:

AKC standard

Toys under 10 inch
Miniatures 10 to 15 inch
Standards over 15 inch

FCI

Toy under 11 inch
Miniature 11 to 13.8 inch
Medium 13.8 inch to 17.7 inch
Standard 17.7 inch to 24.4 inch

I would say that in Europe good breeders do not mix Standards to any other size but it is acceptable to mix toy,miniature and medium.

Bottom line you don't have any Klein/Moyen=Medium Poodles in AKC.
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Old 03-08-2011, 01:07 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Interesting topic. Casey, and I believe there are several others on this forum, is an overgrown mini at 17". I LOVE this size. It was just chance that he was overgrown; his litter sister is a true mini and is winning championships all over Canada. I would love to see PCA/AKC recognize the klein/moyen size in the U.S., because it truly fills a perfect niche.

I'm confused at the statement about Karin "participating in conformation to prove her stock..." Surely she can't be doing this with the Moyens, is she? Or does she enter the puppies in conformation before they reach their adult height that would disqualify them from the miniature class?

Also I'm confused as to what would be wrong with breeding an oversize mini with a small standard? How would that offspring not be "moyen" sized and proportioned?
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